Meet the Other Phone. A phone that grows with your child.

Meet the Other Phone.
A phone that grows with your child.

Buy now

Please or to access all these features

Higher education

Talk to other parents whose children are preparing for university on our Higher Education forum.

Conflicted DC (stem Vs economics)

27 replies

alphaqw · 03/01/2024 21:46

Has anyone had a DC who is quantitatively orientated (likes maths), but can't decide between stem (physics etc) or economics?

What did they do?

OP posts:
PettsWoodParadise · 03/01/2024 21:57

Isn’t economics considered STEM as It is maths heavy? So it wouldn’t be a case of STEM or Economics. Last year when DD applied to Uni (for an arts subject) her STEM friends and this forum seemed to show Economics as one of the most competitive courses. Some subjects are less popular than they may have been in past like Chemistry ins favour of NatSci etc

A friend of DD’s who didn’t want to do pure Economics or Maths chose actuarial science and is loving it.

all the above said as the parent of an arts student with lots of Stem friends.

alphaqw · 03/01/2024 22:01

@PettsWoodParadise the conflict is between studying a physical science or a social science.

OP posts:
Pinkpinkplonk · 03/01/2024 22:04

Take a year out.Travel, work, earn, develop new skills, grow. Don’t do the wrong course!

HardcoreLadyType · 03/01/2024 22:09

I would choose the physical science, if he likes it just as well.

It won’t hurt if he wants to apply for economics, and obviously will also be needed if he wants to study sciences.

Lots of physics and engineering graduates go on to work in finance, because their problem-solving abilities are highly valued, so even choosing a degree doesn’t necessarily close doors.

Bunnyannesummers · 04/01/2024 00:56

Does he have any idea what he’d like to do after? Is he slightly stronger in one area than the other?

As PP have said there’s a lot of crossover in careers so it may not matter if he wants to do finance for example…but if he’s got a latent passion for astrophysics it does matter.

Whats the grade profile?

Being slightly strategic, economics is REALLY popular at the moment and places fill, but a lot of STEM courses at great unis will go into clearing, so there’s always a potential option for last minute change. At my place we had all the engineerings bar straight general BA, physics 3 and 4 year and most chem or Chem adjacent subjects. They were all small numbers of spaces, but the option was there. We’re high tariff but not top top tariff for reference

Needmoresleep · 04/01/2024 07:02

Economics is a social science. Courses vary a lot. Some are very quantitative, others are not.

Great he has the maths ability to access some of the more quantitative courses. However such courses will be very dry if he does not have an underlying interest in economics itself. I suggest reading a few popular economics books (Freakonomics, The Undercover Economist) or perhaps something like the Economist.

Note that the maths used in economics is statistics. Some STEM subjects will also use mechanics. What maths does he like.

Also what stage is he at? What A levels is he taking, or is he at the point of choosing.

sendsummer · 04/01/2024 08:47

Is he conflicted because of future career options or subject interest? I will probably get lambasted for this but, like for like, a physics degree is harder. It involves grasping complex concepts plus will require all types of maths including pure for theoretical physics and is more likely to develop programming skills. Economics however as a social science develops discursive essay writing and statistics. If he genuinely finds both subjects equally interesting and wants to aim for a higher paying career in finance then economics is the more straightforward route to that, hence its popularity.

Needmoresleep · 04/01/2024 09:02

Sendsummer, economics courses are spread across a broad range. OP's DS is considering the more mathematical courses.

My DS took one of these at LSE switching in his third year so he graduated in Econometrics and Mathematical Economics. He took more maths courses than his friend studying EEE at Imperial and at masters level did not write a single essay. There are a lot of complex concepts to be understood when manipulating data.

Years before his dad studied PPE at Oxford. Both might claim to be economists but though they both had a strong interest in the economy, there was not a lot of overlap in the content of their degrees.

alphaqw · 04/01/2024 10:11

Conflicted because DC enjoys physics and he also enjoys economics. Finds both fascinating.

(We sadly can't afford a US uni which would allow them to study both/dual major)

OP posts:
alphaqw · 04/01/2024 10:14

Conflicted DS is in year 12 doing the standard "Maths, Further Maths, Physics , Economics combo"

Can't decide where to apply his mathematical skills.

OP posts:
ErrolTheDragon · 04/01/2024 10:22

One question is how much does he like lab work - though physics courses vary no doubt there will be a fair bit. (That question is definitely one which anyone thinking about chemistry should consider carefully).

SandyIrving · 04/01/2024 10:27

A four-year degree at one of the old Scottish unis taking physics, maths and economics in 1st year would give him another year to decide (might be able to continue all 3 for 2 years before deciding).

sendsummer · 04/01/2024 10:51

He took more maths courses than his friend studying EEE at Imperial and at masters level did not write a single essay. There are a lot of complex concepts to be understood when manipulating data.

I am not saying concepts in economics including statistics are n’t challenging. Discursive essays are also challenging particularly for some mathematicians and will be required in undergraduate economics. However like for like, physics particularly with theoretical physics concepts are more challenging. Also the maths will be more varied than the focus on regression models in undergraduate economics.

poetryandwine · 04/01/2024 12:23

Hi, OP -

I am a former Russell Group STEM admissions tutor. I think you have a lot of good advice above so my main point will be different. But I will concur with @Needmoresleep that Economics programmes can vary widely in content. Also I echo her point that Economics is heavily Statistics based. Physics makes much richer use of Maths. How significant is this for DS?

Furthermore, our graduates do get desirable jobs in the financial sector and this is typical of good STEM graduates from excellent programmes who have proactively aimed for the financial sector during their studies. So if DS is interested in a financial career, the choice may not be all that significant.

I also note per PP that actuaries have fabulous job satisfaction (and career progession), at or very close to the top of the league tables decade after decade. I am not sure what an actuarial degree (perhaps a joint hons degree) entails but it is worth knowing about. However one can also enter the career from an Economics or STEM discipline.

Now, I am mainly writing in response to your comment that you cannot afford to send DS to university in America. A minority of excellent American universities offer substantial financial aid to international students.

At the extreme, several Ivy League schools including Harvard and Dartmouth have a policy that a family on an income of less than $100,000 never pays a cent, nor does the student take a loan (though they may be required to work a pretty good university job, eg in a library or academic department, for a few hours per week during term time). Above that threshold there is a contribution but the asset calculator does not include the primary home or pension pots and it takes account of family size. I created a fake profile at Harvard as a Continental applicant with a family income of $175,000 pa (!) and including travel and health ins, my family was only paying about $20,000 pa. That’s barely more than the total costs of a British university when the exchange rate is bad, and I was posing as a fairly rich girl.

Other universities and elite four year colleges - the latter is a concept we don’t have in the UK but I will summarise below - offer less comprehensive aid, but this board has contained a number of posts from mums pleasantly shocked by what they have found.

The Fulbright Foundation which encourages bilateral UK-US educational exchange (Wm Fulbright was a distinguished US senator) has a website containing a lot of detailed information about this.

The elite four year colleges are staffed by academics who are superbly qualified nut decided at some point (in STEM usually after a postdoc) to focus more on teaching than research. So they don’t have PhD programmes.

Students get much more attention from academics than at universities. They can do independent study, summer projects, etc. Examples include Amherst, Swarthmore, Reed, the five Claremont Colleges east of LA, Oberlin and many, many more. A mum about a year ago on this board said she had a DC at Oxbridge, one at an Ivy and one at one of these colleges. The college student had the best experience. Amongst PG tutors and large employers the colleges are very well recognised; I am not sure about small employers in the UK (‘yes’ in the US).

Please forgive the detail; I myself have taught only at large universities in the US and UK. But some of our strongest American doctoral students (in a superb School) were from four year colleges, and I wanted to make clear that the education is recognised to be as good as any.

Anyway, your DS has a relatively nice problem!

Needmoresleep · 04/01/2024 12:48

Some slightly random thoughts/ideas.
Applications to the US are require a lot of effort and can distract from A level work, especially if looking for scholarships. DS' school used to advise the UK or the US, not both.
You might look at course content. Many courses will allow for courses, perhaps one a year, outside your main discipline. So study physics and take an economics course each year?
Places like UCL and Warwick have good study year abroad provision, including in the US, which might allow for a wider range of study.

It is possible to get a place on LSEs Econometrics and Mathematical Economics Masters with a degree in physics. I assume the same is true elsewhere. A fellow Brit on DS' econ PhD programme in the US had a first degree in engineering. Given physics in often an integrated Masters there is scope to switch after the BSc to Economics and still only spend four years at University. (Note, there are funding advantages in taking an integrated rather than stand alone Masters.)

alphaqw · 04/01/2024 12:52

ErrolTheDragon · 04/01/2024 10:22

One question is how much does he like lab work - though physics courses vary no doubt there will be a fair bit. (That question is definitely one which anyone thinking about chemistry should consider carefully).

DS considered engineering so did electronics GCSE. The project was so hard it once reduced DS to tears. Scraped a 7.

DS has been enjoying physics A-level and isn't finding the practical endorsement challenging at all.

OP posts:
ErrolTheDragon · 04/01/2024 13:11

I also note per PP that actuaries have fabulous job satisfaction (and career progession), at or very close to the top of the league tables decade after decade. I am not sure what an actuarial degree (perhaps a joint hons degree) entails but it is worth knowing about.

@DadDadDad might know, if he's still around on these boards.

Also the maths will be more varied than the focus on regression models in undergraduate economics.

Economics isn't my area at all so this may not apply (yet), but some in some stem fields, regression models are being augmented or supplanted by various machine learning methods. Whether that may make the maths more or less varied I don't know!

Needmoresleep · 04/01/2024 13:31

Errol, you also need the clever bod who understand who can get their head round the data and the many variables. Even back in the day when I studied economics I remember the complexity of analysis and set theory and the concept of multi-dimensional space. (All now forgotten along with my A level mechanics.)

Back in the day LSE offered one of the few, and certainly the most prestigious, actuarial science degrees. If he remains undecided it is worth reading through the various course structures, compulsory courses and outside options carefully. With the invasion of data/statistics into other degrees, there seems to be a lot more overlap between actuarial science and other quantitative degrees. I assume with most universities, even if not advertised, if you have taken the right courses and have good marks it is possible to switch between degrees. One of DS' UG contemporaries started in the maths department taking Maths with Economics.

Has he looked at Morse at Warwick? Though again I would warn that degrees, including actuarial science, that involve a lot of statistics can be quite dry unless you have a deep interest.

poetryandwine · 04/01/2024 14:11

MORSE at Warwick is worth a look! I think it sounds great although I don’t know anyone doing it.

I agree that applications to America can be very time consuming. But with planning it can be done. And the type of ‘free ride’ I have described above offered by Harvard and some other top schools requires no application whatsoever, except certification of family financial data. Most of the excellent private American universities offer ‘needs blind’ admissions, where successful applicants are guaranteed an aid package deemed to make attendance possible. (The one I described is obviously the most generous; many aid packages do include loans. ) The Fulbright website has a lot of information.

UK applications will be simplified for your DS because the Personal Statement will be simplified/replaced.

As a general principle, you can travel from a more mathematically intense discipline to a less intense one. So Physics to Econ should work, but not necessarily vice versa. (Note however that at the doctoral level Econometrics can be very rich and diverse mathematically)

DadDadDad · 04/01/2024 14:50

Not read the whole thread, but as @ErrolTheDragon has called me, I can say something about being actuary (been doing that job for 20+ years).

You can do a degree in actuarial science and it can get you some exemptions from professional exams, but it's not essential.

In fact, I'd recommend doing a numerate degree (strong performance in an economics, maths, or physics degree with a grade A in Maths A-level are all good signs that you would succeed as an actuary - there are lots of tough professional exams to pass). That leaves you with wider options, in case by the time you graduate you decide being an actuary isn't for you...

sendsummer · 04/01/2024 18:02

Errol most will just copy and paste code for ML algorithms to test them on their data. My bet is that far fewer economic graduates, even from the most mathematical undergraduate courses will have the maths skills to be involved in developing new algorithms than physics or maths graduates.

OP has your DS considered doing a maths degree? Many include options to specialise in applied maths after core modules to inform that choice.

poetryandwine · 04/01/2024 18:12

To muddy the waters further, one can also do Joint Hons Physics and Maths or Msths and Economics….

In either case you probably need a single subject Masters to go on to a PhD

alphaqw · 05/01/2024 11:16

I don't think son's issue is with the career stuff. It's about what's most interesting at university. Son does enjoy both subjects.

OP posts:
notfeelingcreative · 05/01/2024 11:29

I'm not sure if anyone else has mentioned this but I think (just from one of DSs friends mentioning it) that Durham's natural sciences degree would let you combine physics with economics. www.durham.ac.uk/departments/academic/natural-sciences/faq/subjects/#d.en.454866 I don't know about it beyond that. But worth a look maybe?

alphaqw · 05/01/2024 12:26

@notfeelingcreative thanks. Had no idea that existed.

OP posts:
Swipe left for the next trending thread