Oxbridge 2024 Entry Part 4

[Lightsabre]

New thread as our dc start the rollercoaster ride of interviews.

I presume on this thread there’s a mixture of state and privately educated DC. I’m glad I don’t know who goes to which type of school/college.

Of course, you all know that the traditions of these two universities encapsulate so much more than academics. With regard to the college choirs, admissions departments have been remiss in not prioritising offers to school children able to maintain that crystal clear, delicately balanced and unmistakably unique sound. This poor stewardship has resulted in the very sad loss of one of our country's greatest treasures, and is, I believe, what the originally mentioned article was referring to.

You're being ridiculous

Most DC don't have the chance to become choristers in the first place

So to prioritise those who do

Well ....,

The loss is the sound. Maybe you don’t care, but it makes me sad. I think it’s a great tragedy that there’s nothing to distinguish the college choirs anymore (versus any other from around the world).

@Pleasealexa It will be what it is and our DC should be proud that they applied.

100% agree, bearing in mind that there’s a limited number of places and many very good candidates. If an applicant isn’t accepted this year they could just be among the many who are very good but for whom there was just no room.

I echo this sentiment. I have no interest in who goes where or in arguing the advantages (or lack) of candidates from state/grammar/private schools. All are equally deserving in my eyes.

I have been extremely thankful and appreciative of this supportive thread. I have received such quality advice and guidance in the past 10 months. Would be great if it wasn’t derailed by posters who don’t even appear to have DC’s currently in the process.

An amount of the choirs have boy trebles which won’t be affected by people who apply to university.

The sound of some college choirs will be changing - St John’s at Cambridge for instance is beginning to introduce girl trebles alongside boy trebles which changes the sound. Again this is nothing to do with university applicants.

Agree with all of this. DS said that at his (C) college they don't care about which school you went to, it doesn't come up in conversation....once they are in, they all recognise how lucky they are to be there, realise that they all suffer from imposter syndrome, and whichever school you went to, you have to work twice as hard as your peers at other unis to stay on top of the workload, so in a way, getting in is the easy bit 😉

Good luck to everyone waiting - may it fly by until Jan 9th and Jan 20-sthg depending on the uni. And I wouldn't suggest trying dry January...esp with a C hopeful!!

Yes, sound changes dramatically when girl trebles are introduced, and I understand that some might insist on this being a necessary change. The loss of college choir sound quality is more to do with the voices of the altos, tenors and basses, however, which is an admissions department thing.

Am sure there’s lots of other cultural facets that have altered with the sands of time which are not being mooted as something that should infer advantage should someone have related skills.

Reduction in church attendance is conveniently not mentioned, but how many choristers gained their skills outside a church/cathedral/chapel environment? It is certainly opening a can of worms to mention this, so very convenient to pretend it’s just a state school/private school matter, but how many choristers are atheists, agnostic, or represent a religion other than christianity, given the number of christian religious services they are expected to sing at? Is the massive decline in church attendance not a big part of the issue? How do you avoid claims of religious bias if you are focusing on the quality of your choir over and above academic merit?

The problem with suggesting that there is "discrimination" is the insinuation that state school students don't get their place on merit. Not nice to hear for any parents of successful state school students, and I'm sure there will be some of those on this thread. So better to just celebrate all the DC, they have all worked hard and deserve an offer.

If oxbridge colleges are worried about not having enough trained voices they could recruit and train kids from the local schools?

That makes no sense at all

Why not? They could have choirs for concerts like in other cathedrals. They don’t need to be students for every service.

I think you underestimate the training involved for Choristers. At my son’s school they practised for an hour before school most days, had individual singing lessons (plus piano and 1 other instrument) and sang multiple weekly services including 2 on Sunday. Yes they could get people to sing for every service, but there is something special about a properly trained Cathedral choir. It is magical and I am a committed atheist.

I am no means an expert, but pretty certain there are choir schools in Oxford and Cambridge - eg Kings and St Johns already - but the problem isn’t the boys, it is that ex choristers are less likely to be admitted than in previous years. The university has made a decision to admit in academics only and this as the article outlined has had the by product of reducing the quality of the Oxbridge choirs particularly when compared to US universities who do place a higher value on other talents as long as the academics are to a certain standard.

Some actually already do this already but they are very different choirs and of a very different standard to the main college choirs, especially the better known ones. I don’t think you know what you are talking about TBH if you think this is a runner. They are not even the same age choristers to start with

@Mirrormeback I understand what you are saying. I do hope they will find a way to maintain this beautiful choral tradition.

The choirs are all fine though? I don't know about Oxford, but at Cambridge, it's only the Kings College choir that is all male (with thd boy choristers coming from the nearby school set up for this purpose). All the other main college choirs are mixed. They only have to find a handful of each voice type, out of hundreds in a college including postgrads. Why would they need to recruit from the local area?

Also, it simply doesn't happen that boy choristers are somehow fast-tracked into 'top public schools'. Where do people get this notion from? It's not 1850. These schools are, first and foremost, academically selective. In any case, being a boy chorister doesn't mean you will still have a decent singing voice later - depends what happens when the voice breaks.

Yes, some schools offer better choir training than others and many students will never have had the chance to take singing lessons or be in a choir. But they do have to be able to sight-read quite well, certainly for a choral scholarship, so it's not as if the choirs are suddenly being filled with anyone who fancies a bit of a sing-along.

Thet have to send in a video of them singing a piece from a set list. This is AFTER a conditional offer has been made. Then, it's the intercollegiate choral trials. They sing one piece unaccompanied. One piece sight reading. Then there are other tests where they have to differentiate between notes / chords, sing notes back etc. it's not really the kind of thing students would put themselves up for if they didn't have at least Grade 8 singing and some choir / solo experience.

@astraq https://www.theguardian.com/music/2023/dec/16/britain-talent-us-choirs-choral-arts-education-cuts-oxbridge is what started this discussion.

Some have tried to turn it into a state/private thing, but I think it is more nuanced than that. Anecdotal evidence only, but all the choristers in my son’s school for 2 years above (he left end of year 6) and his year went on to boarding schools.

Anyone know the stats for Oxford for 2022 - how many applicants v how many interviews v how many offers for Classics? Trying to prepare myself for the 9th Jan! X

The applicants to interview ratio is fairly irrelevant now. The broad brush rule is one offer to every three applicants interviewed. Classics II has far fewer offers than Classics I (unless there's been a sea change).

DD4 is a fourth year Classicist who has always helped with Open Days and interviews.

Pretty much all applicants across all subjetcs are now in the same sort of boat: one in three.

Just over a week to go….

Happy New Year to all students and parents waiting!

@Rzim there's loads of data on the Oxford website , by college and subject

And guess the ratio for some subject may be different this year if entrance exam problems gave rise to more interviews