Oxbridge- more likely to get in if live in rough area?

[jennylamb1]

Our son (13) has a passion for history, and is bright with his assessment on entry to school putting him in the top 6% on midyis in general and top 1% for verbal language. He has Asperger's so some social and communication issues but teachers have also said that he has an excellent memory. He attends a private school since the smaller class sizes are more supportive of his autism, it's a mainstream. We have a few years yet, but being aspirational for him I was wondering about Oxbridge. He will go to a non-private 6th form college. We live in quite a deprived area which scores 1 and 2 on the Polar and Acorn measurements. Would this realistically give him much of an advantage?

Sorry @Validus that last remark of mind about switchin sixth form was for OP's benefit

Thanks all, an interesting thread. I anticipate DS will likely go to a local RG university and stay at home due to the cost of rent for students nowadays and because he may need a bit of continued support given Asperger's. Will see how he develops though as it's good to be aware of all options.

The main thing with Oxbridge is the entrance exams help to determine whether a place is offered as well. We live in a low number POLAR postcode, Ds did have one contextual offer which was for POLAR and state school. Other universities want more boxes ticked. I think many applicants would lie about the first in the family to go to uni bit because how would they check a parent attended any university? Also the job title of the highest earner in the family too.

UCAS makes you list the schools you have attended so they can see where you got your GCSEs from. The teacher reference also lists the status of the sixth form, free school meals etc and where they place locally in terms of cohort and academic success.

Looking ahead is brilliant, have a look at UNIQ Oxford summer school or Sutton Trust so you know what is out there.

I think many applicants would lie about the first in the family to go to uni bit because how would they check a parent attended any university?

I think this is so sad to expect people to lie.

UNIQ is only for state school pupils. Places are prioritised for students meeting the contextual factors outlined above eg. POLAR, ACORN, care leavers etc. There is typically a 1 in 7 chance of getting a place on UNIQ.

For university, you have to look at the actual course and exactly what will be taught and if the DC is inspired by it at age 17.

There is now zero advantage going to Oxford or Cambridge from an employment perspective because many employers treat those universities just like those universities treat private schools. So if he wants to become an academic and really loves the syllabus go for it. However, if it is to gain employment points in the private sector like it used to be, there is literally zero advantage. There is a lot of work at these universities in a very short amount of time and it can hasten autistic burn out. So I would personally be quite guarded and watch what they do in the next few years in terms of mental health support for students.

Wiget I would be appalled if anyone would lie! I have always told my children I would rather they failed everything than ever lie.

I think parents who try to game the system should really just stop and think about what they are trying to achieve. The WP / contextual measures are not there to give disadvantaged kids some sort of compensation for having had a hard life. They are there to help identify the best people. If your DC cannot get to Oxbridge on merit, you're not doing them any favours by finding another way of getting them in, pretending to live in an area of deprivation or whatever. Those degrees are difficult enough for students that the universities think are actually up to it, they won't be much fun for students who aren't.

And that's quite apart from the morality of taking a place from someone who deserves it more.

Very well said.

can you give examples of those gaps please? thanks

State schools really differ, some don’t even offer Further Maths at A level. Some don’t offer things like a French exchange for a language degree so aural skills could be far behind. Then there is ab initio Latin but obviously hard to really catch up with a child from a private school background who went to a prep and then Eton and started in Year 5. Science labs and experiments also make a big difference, again the offering really varies from school to school in the state sector as well.

Students may have missed a lot of schooling, many reasons such as being a young carer for a disabled parent, having to care for younger siblings, having to work to help support their family. They may not be able to afford transport to school. They may miss school due to period poverty.
Disadvantaged students will have less access to textbooks (if they have to pay for them) additional revision sources, software or private tuition. May be living in overcrowded accommodation with no quiet place to study. May not be warm or adequately fed at home.

A less advantaged school will have large class sizes, poor resources, persistent staff absence, unmotivated or demoralised staff teaching subjects that are not their specialist subjects. Poor behaviour in class. Less access to additional resources and run down facilities. No additional revision sessions and extra curricular activities. Less choice of exam subjects and less lesson hours per subject. (All of the above affect our school). Work often not marked nor feedback given.

I'm surprised this needs to be pointed out.

Something else that goes unnoticed is the effect in less deprived areas of having peers to compete against and work alongside, or rather the relatively less ambitious goals in areas of low university attendance. When the norm is leaving school to work in minimum wage jobs, or begin an apprenticeship in a semi-skilled trade alongside a relative, any university place gained is a statistical rarity, never mind acceptance at Oxbridge. Not because all these kids started off with less academic potential, but because there's a tendency to go with what you know when advanced learning isn't seen as relevant to real life.

Here are a few examples @Alohapotato:

DD was taught history in a large mixed ability class alongside students who achieved grades 2 & 3. She was one of a handful getting above grade 6.

One of her favourite teachers and another pupil who had been at school with her since they were 4 took their own lives within 3 weeks of each other shortly before her GCSEs.

In chemistry hydrochloric acid was put in the water bottle of a fellow pupil. Students took ecstasy at registration as a dare and were taken to hospital during maths to recover.

There was not enough scope to teach MFL, so everyone was allocated French or Spanish in year 7 and despite having fluent teachers, could not swap or take a second language such as German.

FM was offered to a few students in the top maths set. They had 15 x 1 hour sessions after school with a teacher who was giving up their free time. You couldn't attend if you were relying on the school bus to get home.

She never finished her A level maths syllabus, which made Oxford Economics so much harder.

She was the first student to go to Oxford or Cambridge in at least 10 years. Most students in the top sets would aspire to non-RG universities to take more vocational or creative degrees. Less than 30% in our postcode area achieve 5 GCSEs inc. English & maths.

Forgot the mention the undiagnosed ALN, which didn't get picked up because she was so bright & good by comparison.

Actually, we could be accused of gaming the system, as we are a family of academics & professionals. We just happen to live in a deprived area and sent DD to one of 2 schools in our town. The other had a stabbing at mid morning break in the canteen queue.

I think sometimes there are actual gaps in knowledge, where DC have had to teach themselves if teachers aren't there or are not specialists, or subjects aren't offered. Plus with little support for an Oxbridge application or fewer other opportunities they may have less of a hinterland. There's a point beyond which, however bright they are, Oxbridge cannot catch them up.

@stoneysongs this happened to DD with AS chemistry. She smashed it nonetheless. But with more effort and time than was strictly necessary. And to both my children with Oxbridge preparation; there was none! Meanwhile the local private school Set aside every weds afternoon for preparation for Oxbridge and other specialist applications like medicine.
This is why the myths around contextual offers at such places make me so cross. I have friends whose children went private and were peddled the lie by teachers that state schoolers got lower offers.
The reality is it really is harder to get there from very many places.

I don't think this is true. DS got a contextual offer.

This basically describes DS1. He went to the local very average comp and his exam results were in a different league to almost all of the other students. He was the only person in his year to first apply and then to get in to Oxford.

DS2 also applied the following year but was unsuccessful at interview. No one from the school got in to Oxbridge that year.

One thing I would say is that the terms are so intense. DS1 works incredibly hard in term time and because they have to vacate their rooms at the end of each term, he doesn’t have much down time with his friends at university.

I don’t think ds1 regrets his choice now (3rd year) but he has at various points as have I. It’s been a stressful journey! Ds1 is doing a 4 year degree, he’s been in halls for these 3 years but has to move out for the final year.

Yes, I have heard the pace at Oxbridge is a lot more intense.

It was probably a link from here that led me to this article originally. It is old, but does provide some interesting insights.

https://www.theguardian.com/education/2012/jan/10/how-cambridge-admissions-really-work

Interesting and so true. I also think they should ask how many generations have been to university before the applicant. The cultural capital of coming from 2-3 generations of university goers cannot be understated.
But can they really assess the 'poor professor v rich banker' as part of the contextualisation?
And perhaps anyone who has a teacher in the family (regardless of subject or level) should also be considered - massive, massive advantage!

“being aspirational for him”. Stop this. It’s HIS DECISION. Stop pushing him to do something that you want him to do. Ridiculous and so damaging

Be careful what you wish for Oxbridge has a terrible reputation for supporting people with additional needs as well as people from lower socioeconomic backgrounds. They are better at getting people in but haven’t translated into support further down the line.

What is your experience of lack of support at Oxbridge @Wolfpa ? DD has seen her college support students in so many ways including bursaries, grants, extra accommodation, emotional support, academic support, peer support. If you are not neuro-diverse you are almost in the minority. Those with disabilities or special needs get the accessible rooms / quiet rooms / en-suites and tutors adapt to make sure rooms work for them, can get online access, etc etc