Oxbridge- more likely to get in if live in rough area?

[jennylamb1]

Our son (13) has a passion for history, and is bright with his assessment on entry to school putting him in the top 6% on midyis in general and top 1% for verbal language. He has Asperger's so some social and communication issues but teachers have also said that he has an excellent memory. He attends a private school since the smaller class sizes are more supportive of his autism, it's a mainstream. We have a few years yet, but being aspirational for him I was wondering about Oxbridge. He will go to a non-private 6th form college. We live in quite a deprived area which scores 1 and 2 on the Polar and Acorn measurements. Would this realistically give him much of an advantage?

• that should read 'second language.'

The chances if you ever being in a position to consider applying for Oxbridge are already very low if you live in a disadvantaged area. There are some areas which do not send a single person to Oxbridge year after year.

So I suppose that if you’ve already overcome that and achieved very good GCSEs and have strong predicted A Levels (even if not top—top like someone might have got form a very advantaged area and school) then you’re doing extremely well and have a lot of potential. And it’s for that reason that Oxbridge are very interested to see your application and consider you. It’s why they offer summer schools and other access courses to help the bright students from these backgrounds consider it and perhaos make the leap into deciding to apply, rather than thinking it’s just not for people from their area.

In the sense that someone in this position has already done extremely well to get so far…if they get to interview and do well, I think they do have a good chance. With 2 equally performing candidates and one from a very disadvantaged background and the other from a very orivileged one, and a system looking to broaden access, it should be a no-brainier and will be. And to be honest who can argue with that….for someone from the very disadvantaged background to perform as well as someone from a privileged background says an awful lot about them and their potential.

Where it’s more tricky is when the person from the disadvantaged background has done pretty well and seems to have lots of potential, but also lots of gaps as a result of their background. Oxbridge look for raw talent and ability and can make up gaps to an extent, but only an extent. Sometimes they have to turn students down who look like they could be really good, but just have too many gaps to be realistically overcome. And I guess making decisions about candidates within these brackets rather than the super-duper ones is the trickiest bit.

Those from orivileged backgrounds can feel under attack. I can see why. But equally, these days I think it’s not unreasonable to require those candidates to be absolutely super duper and tip top to be beating those from less affluent backgrounds. People forget that the reason these candidates are doing so well is partly due to their privilege. Contextualising applicants means those with privilege simply have to be the very best of the best and not just the best.

This is interesting - I know someone who's child got the same Midyis score - all way above average, one at 127. Lowest was skills but her DD is dyslexic, which appears to be where that has dropped, still above average though. She is a single mum and also has her child at a non-selective private. I had no idea this was something that could be used as a basis for Oxbridge. Would she possibly get a better score coming from a single parent household? Father is not paying maintenance and left when she was just born. I'd love to be able to tell her some good news right now!

I don't think being a single mum will make any difference.

Oxford contextualise using the following info (I don't know about Cambridge):

• GCSE attainment compared to the rest of your cohort
• % free school meals at your GCSE school
• performance of your A level school
• ACORN for your area (measure of socioeconomic disadvantage)
• POLAR4 for your area (measure of participation in HE)
• experience of care system
• entitlement to free school meals
• other optional WP questions on UCAS eg caring responsibilities, parent in the forces, refugee status etc

The thing is, it's so competitive for most subjects that even if they, in the final analysis consider a slightly contextual offer, it might be AAA. My dd got in on a subject that has a less than one in ten chance of getting in. She did get a contextual offer from one uni, I think Bath, but it was something like if you drop one grade, they will take the EP into account. Nowhere else offered anything contextual. In high-competition courses, contextual offers are rarer and mean less anyway as the grades are high all around. She did get a very low second offer, presumably to tempt her away from Oxbridge though from an excellent uni.

That's meant to say A star A star A, I can't do the stars in Mumsnet!

My daughter didn't need a contextual offer though as she went to an excellent school even though I'm a lone parent and we live in a slightly rough neighbourhood.

Decent Russel group universities for popular courses are demanding a star aa! Dd went on the access trip to Cambridge but decided it wasn’t for her. The university she is going to wants even higher grades than flipping Oxbridge but they make their own choices.

They are actually under represented by a level results.

I have one with ASD and think that changing schools for A-levels would be a huge challenge and adjustment at an already difficult time - A-level is very different from GCSE. The local college in a deprived area particularly could be a world away from what he's used to.

Personally I'd keep him at his school if at all possible and not worry about the contextual offer too much - you might get it anyway for living in a deprived area or because he is autistic or if he does an EPQ. There are many other places that you might find suit him better anyway - mine had no interest in Oxbridge and hated the idea of formal dinners and requirements to get dressed up. He's looking at degree apprenticeships to try and get him into a workplace so he gets that experience at a younger age before he's having to compete for jobs with far more socially capable grads.

A-Level results need to be considered in context to be meaningful and get the best candidates.

They are actually under represented by a level results.

If you're saying privately educated students are under represented, that's wrong I think, at Oxford anyway. Their latest admissions info says that indie students make up 23.1% of students achieving ÅÅA or better at A level, yet they get 31.9% of the places.

I have an interesting situation with my son's GCSEs and his 'cohort', he is under the process of applying for history at Oxford at the moment with 3 A* predictions for A Levels he is at a local state 6th form that performs reasonable well.

BUT for his GCSEs he had no cohort as he was so poorly due to undiagnosed SEN and a mental health breakdown that he school refused the entire of secondary after a series of suicide attempts and was too ill to even attend a pru. He eventually picked up text books at home in year 11 after getting anxiety medication right, and got just good enough grades to make 6th form. We have no other contextualisation. On our post code he should have done well in his GCSEs. .

So it's a waiting game, it's not a perfect science but he doesn't feet into any of the normal contextualisation. Evidence has been sent by CAMHS etc to explain his GCSEs.

He's already received offers from other top 10 universities without the contextualisation of his GCSEs he got 8 (history),7,666, 5 which is great for a child who went through what he did but not normal Oxford GCSEs. He's done the HAT and sent his written work so we'll see. Should find out in the next fortnight if he is shortlisted for interview or not. What has amazed me is that most Russell group Unis don't look at GCSEs for most subjects! I had no idea.

I don't think he will be at a disadvantage @lifeturnsonadime, his chances of an interview will depend on his HAT score and written work, and then he will be on a level playing field with everyone else. Oxford must get lots of applications from people who don't have any GCSEs at all, and they have plenty of other evidence to go on. He has also shown resilience of the kind that not many DC will have. Hats (HATs?) off to him.

Yes, our local RG university just requires a good pass for English and maths at GCSE, no other GCSE grades are considered.

That's what I've concluded too. And fair enough. He's fine either way as he's happy with the other options he has.

And goodness me he has been resilient. Thanks for mentioning it. We almost have to pinch ourselves that he was in a position to even apply given his earlier situation.

Good luck OP for your son. This has been an interesting thread.

DD went through the process last / this year and is now in Y1 in a Cambridge college. To highlight there is no single factor. There is the application (changing from PS to something else) the interview, the school input (changing too), submission of previous work, interview, exam(s), any contextual info, Cambridge additional info form, how oversubscribed the course is etc etc,

DD was from a highly achieving state grammar, her GCSE profile was far from perfect, predicted top A level grades, live in a leafy nice area, I went to Uni, applied to a college which was hugely popular. On all those factors her chances were slim. I think she stood out due to an Oxbridge essay competition she entered and then her written work and interview maybe tipped the decision in her favour but we will never know why she progressed over others who got all 9s.

From my understanding Oxford weed out more via pre-interview tests so less opportunity for potential candidates to have a bad element but shine in the other. More get interviews at Cambridge but then more get weeded out after that so also less than perfect as more hopes dashed at a later stage.

What I did see from TSR this year was what seemed more students getting places from the summer pool as more than expected didn’t meet their grades. This was great for students had low predictions but impressed in interview or exams and got better than expected grades in A levels or IB etc.

How does the summer pool work alongside your firm and insurance? Do you firm Cambridge even though they haven't made you an offer, or do you carry on with two other choices and they contact you after results?

As I understand it you get notified by Cambridge you are in the summer pool and the likely scenario they might might offer if certain conditions are met, but there is no slot to firm or insure Cambridge, you go ahead with other Unis. If you make the quasi-offer then there is still no guarantee, but it is a combination of who doesn’t make it and if you want to see if they will consider you in light of your grades. I think there might be an onus on you notifying my them of grades ??. https://www.undergraduate.study.cam.ac.uk/apply/after/reconsideration-eligibility

Please can someone define ‘rough’.

There are different widening participation measures that universities use. I don't think 'rough' is necessarily the right word, but one measure that is sometimes used that some might conflate with 'rough' is 'neighbourhood where not many tend to go to university' and the metric most used is POLAR, so a POLAR metric of 1 means very few from that postcode go to university - more information here https://www.officeforstudents.org.uk/data-and-analysis/young-participation-by-area/about-polar-and-adult-he/

Yes, we're in a 1 and 2 Acorn and Polar area,

A handful of very rich people do rent properties in disadvantaged areas precisely to try to game the system, they don't move into them. I think the postcode thing works very well across most of the country, but in London and i'd imagine other big cities, you can easily live in a "disadvantaged" area in a £2m house. My friend who lives 900 yards from me, Oxbridge educated and his wife, one dc at a private school, another state, was in such a position - though his area is hugely desirable now simply because it's zone two. He found to his amazement his dc qualified for contextual offers. We're in a different postcode so didn't - and wouldn't have expected to, but it brought home to me what a VERY rough metric it is.

We've always been told universities check your schooling history, quite a few private school kids with lower grades enrol in the sixth form of our not very good school, in the hope of contextual offers. But Oxbridge are wise to this and the parents come down with a bump when they discover even tutoring doesn't make up the difference between a poor state and a decent private school.

I am from the NE and my siblings went to Oxbridge. I was the oldest and no one (until my younger sibling) had ever been to Oxbridge fro our school and I did not even try. however I did fine at a different university - top of y ear, law prizes etc. So my perspective (having had my 5 chidlern now all graduate and none tried Oxbridge either down here in the SE where I now am but they have cousins/at or who were at Oxbridge) is that if you want to have a go at Oxbridge. However never assume you will get in or that some terrible injustice has been done to you whether you are in a state or private school because you did not get in as (a) vast number who are very good don't get in every year from all sectors and (b) it is not a huge deal.

Looking at what my sons' friends earn and their careers now it seems to be that your career choice, your work towards whatever career you choose etc etc is just as important as if you went to Oxbridge or another top 10 university. I have 4 lawyer children for example in London and they have worked very hard indeed and I don't think not having tried for Oxbridge has held them back (3 went to Bristol).

Just as the parent here is thinking ahead to Oxbridge also think ahead to careers. I chose law when I was 14. Planning that really helped me as to degree choice, planning for after graduation etc.

It will not mean a contextual offer. Oxbridge do not make them. They may look at the context of background as a whole when deciding whether to make an offer at all. But it will be the same as everyone else's if it comes.
And they also look at where the student did their GCSEs, so don't think that a strategic switch to state sixth form will do the trick.