University offers when studying Four A-Levels

[rillytrying]

If a course entry requirement (for example, Chemical Engineering at Imperial) states:

Applicants studying 3 A-Levels: (A-Star, A-Star, A) to (A-Star, A-Star, A-Star)

Applicants studying 4 A-Levels: (A-Star, A-Star, A, A) and also states "If you’re studying four A-levels, we prefer the fourth to be in Physics, Biology, Further Mathematics, Business Studies or Economics at grade A."

Does that mean if DS gets (A-Star, A-Star, A, B) in his four A-levels, he would potentially not get a place? Even though he has bagged the (A-Star, A-Star, A) that someone doing just three A-levels has achieved and been offered a place?

The reason I ask, is DS's intended Sixth Form insists on students doing four A-Levels, but I'm struggling to see the benefit, and (if my understanding above is correct), can only see disadvantages.

Thank you!

I think the potential benefit is that, all other things being equal (which often they won’t be), the 4 A level candidate predicted Astar Astar A A in the right subjects may be ahead of the 3 A level candidate predicted Astar Astar A when decisions are made as to who gets an offer at all on a competitive course.

Has the school offered any insight into their thinking and recent experience on this?

Thank you @Marisquita - I think the problem is that DS likely won't be predicted an A in his fourth subject, given there isn't a fourth subject he particularly wants to study!

No, the school hasn't given any insight, just that all pupils are expected to do 4 A-Levels (exceptions for elite sportspeople/musicians).

I haven't yet raised the question.

Some places e.g. Sheffield or Bath the offer could be AAA or AAB+B in further maths. Think this means if they drop to a B in a third subject they still meet the offer if they get a B in further maths. Some places may give a 4 A level offer if all 4 subjects relevant to the degree course so 4 could be a disadvantage over an applicant with 3 but if most applicants are doing 4 the one only doing 3 may not even get an offer. Most A level students will do 3 subjects.

Could you replace an EPQ with 4th A level? It sounds a bit strange that a school will require students to study 4 A levels. I thought should be other way around.

No, they are encouraged to do an EPQ in addition to the 4 A-levels!

hi @rillytrying
Ds took 4 A levels and an EPQ and applied to Imperial. He submitted his UCAS with predicted grades of 4 x A stars, plus an A star in his EPQ and the offer they made him was for 4 A levels, one A star and 3 As. His good friend also applied to Imperial on a different course, also doing 4 A levels and was made a three A level offer of 3 x A stars. We know a few who've gone to Imperial and they seem to like to make 4 A level offers if you're studying 4 A levels. I have also heard rumours that, on very competitive courses, Imperial start with the people with the best results and issue offers working down, so to speak. In which case people with 4 A levels would be above those with 3, if that makes sense! But, this is anecdotal. It's not really a uni which offers on Bs. So, perhaps it would be best to ace 3, but he would still be competing with applicants ace-ing 4 or more. Other universities may well appreciate the fact he has 4.

DD’s first choice 6th form has the same requirement, as does another nearby which she hasn’t applied to. I think in reality many of them drop their least favourite one going into Y13. Is that an option where you are, OP, to take the pressure off a bit?

I'm afraid it means what it says. If your DS wants clarification on this (perhaps as something to show his school to support his case for doing 3 A levels) then I'd strongly recommend he contacts the admissions tutor of such courses. (Afaik at the moment that's only likely to be Cambridge and imperial that this is really an issue for.

DDs school encouraged them all to start 4 A levels but would then recommend many of them to only continue with 3 in yr13 in the interests of 'quality not quantity' as that's usually better for uni applications. (This was a few years ago so they'd get an AS for the 4th subject).

The downside of doing 3 is that if it's the sort of school where typically they do 4 perhaps it might reduce the likelihood of getting an offer from those couple of highly competitive courses.

Cambridge usually offers on 3 A levels, unless - very rarely - they make a 4 A level offer due to the A level subjects for the course, or some other concern.

3x A-Star is quite possibly the typical offer, the other exceptional. So for most 4 a-level students they arent at a disadvantage as they won’t be asked for 3x A-star just 2. Even if it’s not typical and it’s more balanced, again there’s that certainty

Hi, OP -

The lower 3AL offer is quite possibly contextual, with the higher offer being the standard one.

@FriendlyLaundryMonster can you say where you heard/read about Imperial working their way down from 4 A star predicted for making offers?

Does anyone know how much weight is put on the school reference? DS is in the top 3% of his school for maths which was mentioned in his reference. (His school is in the top 5 nationally for A levels).

Imperial publish a lot of transparency data, including data on offer grades and the grades of enrolled students: Five year undergraduate admissions statistics

This data seems to show that about 80% of students who enrolled on the Chemical Engineering course in 2022 had at least 4 A Levels (if they had A Levels), so it does seem to be an advantage to take 4 A Levels.

However, only about 40% of offer holders had an offer that asked for specific grades across at least 4 A Levels, suggesting that at least prior to the 2023 cycle they made some people who were taking 4 A Levels offers based on grades in only 3 of them.

@Woollyguru This is just an overview I've picked up from knowing a few Imperial applicants and students and being on forums etc. Ds is at Imperial, but I'm no expert! Still, as @Phphion shows, there is lots of data available.

I think the reference should simply be excellent if applying to elite courses/unis, so it will only stand out if it isn't, in which case it may be looked at more closely. In general, context is considered. So, if your child is at a school where all are doing 4 A levels, it will be perceived as less of an achievement to be doing 3.

Thank you so much everyone for your input, some really useful points raised about number of subjects vs grades, including about contextual offers (which I hadn't even considered).

DS isn't especially aiming for the likes of Imperial, I used that as an example in the hope it could augment our case for him doing just three A levels. But thank you to those who have offered insight and data - I'm pleased this topic is of broader interest!

I have just spoken to a friend whose DS is at the same school and she reassured me that lots of students (including her DS) drop their 4th subject before Christmas of Year 12, without any pushback, so I think we'll just go along with selecting four subjects, in the knowledge he can easily drop one.

@FriendlyLaundryMonster thank you that's interesting, from the horse's mouth as it were.

DS is doing 4 A levels and predicted 4 A stars with an excellent reference so fingers crossed. But I'm always reading about so many excellent candidates not getting offers so sadly need to be prepared for rejection.

@Woollyguru That is a wise approach! Ds had two rejections, even with 4 A stars and an A star in his EPQ and loads of other stuff. I’d always advise a safety on the UCAS form, even if it just means Ds/dd will feel a bit less pressure, and consequently may even perform better.

4 A level offers aren't rare for STEM subjects at Cambridge nowadays. But they make 3 A level offers too. Because they do their own aptitude tests and interviews the selection process isn't just about A levels, so long as they're at the required level

I’d always advise a safety on the UCAS form

For sure. And it really is only a few places which offer on 4 A levels so some of the 5 choices will be bound to be based on 3 I'd have thought

@FriendlyLaundryMonster yes definitely good advice and DS has already received an offer from his insurance.

However he's open to a gap year and reapplying if he doesn't get any of his top choices which does take the pressure off slightly. Will just have to wait and see what happens in the weeks and months to come.

@FriendlyLaundryMonster I don't think that is true for sciences. Quite a few children at DA's school applying to Nat Sci at Cambridge get 4 a level offers. And some get the real shocker of specifying that FM and, say, chem and physics need to be A star, so the single maths A star sort of comes for free

@Woollyguru He will just need to make sure he uses his gap year wisely and productively, as top unis will be looking to see how he got the best out of it (and ideally what he does will be course relevant).

@ErrolTheDragon That's interesting about STEM offers. Ds does a STEM subject as do most of his friends and for all the kids we know who were offered both Oxbridge and Imperial, most went for Oxbridge as it was easier to achieve! No STEP requirement (other than for maths) and all that I know had 3 A level offers.
Yes, there are obviously uni entrance tests too. I think these are a good thing. Ds had various interviews, did the TMUA, STEP and had course specific online tests. I think in general they help identify the applicants with the best fit for the course, not necessarily identifiable by grades. Sometimes, I think, the assessors can see when a kid would be a better fit at a competing uni - and they must know they're likely to have applied there too!

@FriendlyLaundryMonster I need to do some research but I don't quite understand how gap year plans can feature in the personal statement if reapplying. Because DS would have to reapply by 15 October 2024 for 2025 entry and that's before doing the gap year!

Would he just talk about his gap year plans? I'm going to have to ask his school for advice. There's lots he could do though, travel, work, online learning, so it would definitely be a very productive year. DD did a gap year and it was the making of her.

It will need a couple of sentences, I'd imagine, in the personal statement outlining plans, and it's likely to be brought up at interview stage. I'm a big fan of gap years for personal growth. Some courses don't like them, especially those with a high maths content, and perhaps the applicant will need to be a bit more motivated to be at speed when they join uni later. We were told - the gap year isn't a year, it's at least 14 months. So, something should be shown for it!

In the experience of applicants in 2023 that I know, applyng to Bristol, UCL, Bath, Kings, etc - those applying with 4 A levels received offers on three A levels, usually two relevant subjects were specified, with the third grade being achieved in any broadly relevant subject. For example for someone applying for Physics, out of maths and physics one should be Astar and the other A, and the third could be either further maths or language at A. Bath had very favourable view of fourth A level, being prepared to reduce grade in one non-core subject if fourth A level is taken and minimum of A achieved, or A is achieved at EPQ, which made it a good insurance choice.