University offers when studying Four A-Levels

[rillytrying]

If a course entry requirement (for example, Chemical Engineering at Imperial) states:

Applicants studying 3 A-Levels: (A-Star, A-Star, A) to (A-Star, A-Star, A-Star)

Applicants studying 4 A-Levels: (A-Star, A-Star, A, A) and also states "If you’re studying four A-levels, we prefer the fourth to be in Physics, Biology, Further Mathematics, Business Studies or Economics at grade A."

Does that mean if DS gets (A-Star, A-Star, A, B) in his four A-levels, he would potentially not get a place? Even though he has bagged the (A-Star, A-Star, A) that someone doing just three A-levels has achieved and been offered a place?

The reason I ask, is DS's intended Sixth Form insists on students doing four A-Levels, but I'm struggling to see the benefit, and (if my understanding above is correct), can only see disadvantages.

Thank you!

We were also advised that gap year is discouraged for courses with heavy math content (maths, physics, engineering), because unless someone is actively revising maths over the gap year, it tends to be forgotten very quickly.

Ds2 has an standard offer of A star AA and an additional offer of A star ABB for 2024 entry. Ds1 also took 4 A levels had 4 offers including Warwick and Durham and none of them asked for 4 A level grades, they were all 3. In previous years it has often been reported that even medicine candiadates only need 3 A levels and it is better to ace 3 than drop grades trying for 4. I wonder if this is now changing with more unis specifying 4 A level grades.

Statisically less than 5% of A level students take 4 subjects all the way through and the standard 3 A levels is 68% if memory serves. The other stats cover 2 A levels or less which might be combined with a another qualification.

That was exactly my child’s NatSci offer. Two A stars and two As and the A star in Maths essentially didn’t count. Whilst they ended up with all A stars, it felt like horrendous pressure. And doing an EPQ too.

My other kids dropped their fourth A Level. But they weren’t doing Oxbridge or STEM.

Depends on the uni. DD needed three As for her first choice uni. She got AAB - the A was the subject that related to her degree. She phoned to argue her case that they evened out and pointed out A* related to her degree, it was still a flat refusal.

My son had offers like three Astar or 2 Astar and 2 A from same course as he was doing 4.

Could be simply just not put down the 4th A-level on his application if it's a concern?

Dd did 4 but all her offers were for 3, one university specified maths grade. She didn't apply to imperial but did to 4 other Russell group including the top rated for her specialised subject

You can't miss off an a level.

This business is only a problem at Cambridge and imperial, and it's agree that it could be expected to make an offer more likely in the first place. And for courses that like FM 4 is needed really.

Everywhere else will give a three grade tarrif and at some there will be greater flexibility of grades if offering 4, eg soem courses at Bath. So has to be looked at in the round.

No, you're not allowed to do that. Not sure why really, it's a shame kids can't do an extra just for breadth of learning rather than the grade mattering.

If you are unsure please just ask admissions at the uni in question. General advice is great to gather but if it is specific don’t try and second guess.

Having worked in this area at one of the most selective I used to hear so much nonsense!

My DDs school was fairly insistent on students only doing 3 A levels because of this quality over quantity view. My DSs school is equally adamant that all students choose 4 A levels! I think the majority do then drop along the way though.

My DS school insist on 4 but you can drop one later. But they said if applying for Oxbridge etc to stand a chance you need to be doing 4.

I can see from Imperial stats that the vast majority of confirmed places go to 4 a level applications so it's probably an unwritten rule that you can apply with 3 but need 4 to realistically stand a chance of being offered a place.

Agree with this great advice!

What is interesting to me in Phphion's Imperial table is the range of offers made for the same course. Some will be contextual, but our observation was that Imperial, more than most, alter their offer presumably based on interview performance. So we knew boys from the same school getting different offers for the same course. A decade ago but we knew one boy applying for a super competitive course getting a very tough offer based on his five A levels. It was as if they were saying that they were not convinced, but if he achieved those grades he deserved his place. (He didn't.)

Cambridge used to, and probably still do, give out 4xA star offers to pupils from very selective London private schools. Almost the reverse of contextual, recognising educational advantage. My assumption is that some of these pupils would struggle to get an offer if they were not offering four. The school certainly advised four for STEM subjects but seemed less strict on humanities. After AS levels were abolished it seemed to become quite common for humanities students to drop the fourth A level once they had received a 3 A level offer. The aim being to maximise grades.

Cambridge have a long history of the reverse contextual offer that @Needmoresleep discusses. Quite some time ago DH was a scholarship boy at a well known school and received the equivalent of a four A star offer, at one of the grand old colleges, for Maths. His school took it as the norm and felt that with the teaching they offered anyone who couldn’t get make the grades didn’t deserve a place!

but I'm struggling to see the benefit

@rillytrying the obvious benefit is that they'll have broader knowledge. A Levels are about morr than just scoring points for getting into uni!

If your son isn't interested in any other subjects, that perhaps demonstrates a lack of intellectual curiosity. If the reason he wants to do three is because he doesn't think he can handle four, then fair enough. But if he does four, and gets a combination of A stars, As and a B, he will have done very well and learned a lot about four subjects, which is logically better than learning a lot about three subjects.

Most schools don't give students the opportunity to do 4, unless they are high attainers, so presumably this is a selective school you're talking about?

Dd did 4 but all offers only related to three. Unfortunately she slipped a grade and even a fourth did not carry enough weight to meet the offer.

I get the impression that Imperial are relatively unusual. More common, from what I've seen, is an offer that says something like AstarAA or AstarABB, so slipping on the third A-level can be compensated for by having a fourth. It may depend on subject, though.

Some schools that insist on everyone starting four A-levels do it partly to solve the problem of someone having second thoughts about a subject. If they've started with four, they can just drop it, but if they started with three, there's the big question of whether it's too late to catch up on a different subject. One of our local sixth forms insists on four if they're doing further maths, because that allows them to drop out of further maths easily.

In the vast majority of cases, where people do 4, the 4th is actually FM. Students doing FM tend to be very good and are on track for Astar at A Level Maths and at least A in FM. If they aren’t on track for A star in Maths, they shouldn’t be doing FM too.

Schools insisting on starting 4 A Levels are rarely insisting on completing 4 A Levels, except for those doing Maths and FM. Sometimes they want people to start 4 with a view to dropping the weakest subject (which isn’t yet known) in yr12. It is very unusual these days for schools or colleges to encourage, for example 4 essay subjects. Even top selective schools don’t tend to do this as they know it disadvantages students….better to do 3 with all at A star and A, than to do 4 and have a B or two, unless one of those subjects is FM and that FM is an entry requirement for some uni courses.

OP, I would seek to clarify further with school/college about what the expectation and norm is re how long the 4 subjects are studied. I would challenge if there genuinely is an expectation of those not doing Maths and FM to take 4 right to the bitter end. It would be highly unusual and in my view, worth looking at other options for 6th Form.

DS did 4 Alevels and it was only Imperial that offered him a place based on all 4 Alevels,, all other offers were based on 3 Alevels.

On my DS engineering course at imperial, the majority have 4 or 5 Alevels and speaking to admissions - no offers are based on a B grade - need A as a minimum and A* in maths.

Badically, if most students at your school do 4, you'll be expected to jave 4, whereas if most do 3 you won't. They take the school context into account, so that students who haven't had the opportunity to do 4 are not disadvantaged.

@WombatChocolate I think you're right. DS is doing 4 including maths and FM.

He definitely needs FM for his course/uni choices as even though FM is not officially a requirement, it is in practice as the vast majority of students on the course have FM. He's expected to take it as his school offers it.

This was also DS1's experience: Imperial 4, everywhere else 3, and even for the 4th subject they demanded an A.

It does make you feel like there's a penalty for having taken on the 4th subject.

DS did 5 A levels recently and his maths offers were I think all two A stars (specifying maths and FM) and an A, I can't remember if Imperial specified the A had to be physics or not, I think his Warwick offer didn't. His other two subjects weren't specifically relevant to maths. We think he probably had a strong MAT result though which Warwick and Imperial both would have looked at. He didn't regret the 5 A levels but it's not entirely to be recommended!