Maths A-level - weakest link

[stubiff]

Following on from DS’s choices dilemma (still ongoing) and the thread re AAC (C in Maths) then interested in DC experiences of taking Maths A-level and it being the weakest link (for whatever reason).

If they got Maths GCSE 6, or 7 even, did they regret taking Maths A-level.
If they got 777 at GCSE, did they expect predictions of BBB (or the same grades across the board) but found Maths harder/got lower (predicted/actual).
Did they take Maths A-level to ‘keep options open’ or because school/parents/MN/ANOther recommended it, and then regretted it.
Did they get predicted AAC, or BBD (say), and have trouble picking Unis/courses, or the level of Uni/course.

Thanks.

BasiliskStare is right. In maths kids seem to hit a ceiling and it can be hard to predict when that might be.

However our experience was the opposite. In retrospect we realise that there had been an awful lot of tutoring going on, which meant though DC in a very selective private school, got good grades they never considered themselves mathematicians. A large proportion of their year group, some regularly supported by tutors, were doing a lot better. A level was better as it was more challenging so more interesting. And University better still. Some of their friends found the same, whilst some really struggled with the next stage up. Thinking about it, I cannot remember DC ever struggling with concepts. Maths was logical and intuitive. So perhaps it is not just the maths GSCE grade but how it is achieved.

@Needmoresleep - in our case DS did not have any tutoring for GCSE but he certainly hit the ceiling at A level. My husband did Maths at university & that's when he hit the ceiling so changed to Maths and Computing Science combined / joint course .

I wonder if Maths is just a subject where it is very obvious you have gone as far as you can and maybe humanities courses - it is not so obvious - but the ceiling is still there . Just a thought.

I suspect A level in many subjects is a noticeable step up. Mine struggled with history. Just liking history was not enough. You needed skills in argument and evidence. I would guess Eng Lit, Chemistry and other subjects will also present challenges to some pupils with good GCSE grades.

This thread is extremely informative, if slightly terrifying, so thanks everyone.

DD16 is very good at maths but doesn’t really study, as she finds it easy. She also makes small mistakes, again because she’s often just not concentrating 🤦‍♀️. In mocks she got 7+ (?) and an 8 (they do two papers, not sure if that’s the same across the board) and wants to do A level but now I’m worried the jump up will be far too much! In her words, she wants to do well but not at the expense of having a life.

No idea what to advise her tbh. Maybe I should just stay out of it .

@KevinDeBrioche have an honest chat with the maths teacher as to where her maths strengths lie as I’m pretty sure for maths A level you need to be VERY good with algebra. I think an 8 at GCSE is achievable without being particularly strong in the aspects of maths needed for A level. I’m sure @noblegiraffe will put me right here.

It sounds as if she should be capable of maths a level, but will need to up her game. GCSE maths can be quite straightforward for natural mathematicians. The danger then is that they don’t recognise when they need to start working.

The problem is that it is a subject that relies on previous knowledge. Miss something and catching up can be tough. Her decision. Is she prepared to work hard and consistently. From DS’s experience, practicing problems until you really understand is very important.

@KevinDeBrioche
It may be easy (to advise Maths or not at A-level) if she has any kind of idea of career/the future.
My DS doesn’t hence the dilemma.

Thank you all. I think she will be willing to up her game and the sixth form suggests starting with four subjects dropping to three, which will give her some leeway.

she wants to study earth sciences / geosciences at university . Maths will help, although not as critical as it would be the maths / economics route. They are competitive courses though.

sorry for crashing your thread @stubiff 🙏🏼

@KevinDeBrioche np, glad there is someone else in roughly the same boat!

i probably should have said she’s taking further / additional maths GCSE as well . Tracking at a 7. They started with 34 in that class and are down to 14! She already said if you miss one thing in that class you are screwed as they move on so fast, so it’s promising that she’s keeping up.

@KevinDeBrioche (continuing the thread crashing). Choosing four to start is a great idea and something that DD1 did. Care should be taken when dropping though. Some DC choose to keep the one they think has more kudos rather than the one that would provide the highest grade. Also, this can be way too much if also doing an EPQ.

DS1 got a 7 at GCSE and got a B at A level. He had a tutor for several months as was struggling and sweated blood and tears to get through. It took up far more of his time. He needed AAB. His other A levels were A's. A close call.
Unless you love maths or need it I would probably avoid. Choose what you're likely to do best in to get where you want to go. Play the game.

I think it’s clear that looking at what students got at GCSE and/or A Level if both/either were during Covid years isn’t helpful….the usual comparisons cannot be made.

The reality is that lots of parents and students don’t grasp the likely outcomes of starting A Level Maths with a 6,7 or even 8 at GCSE. People assume their child has a ‘good’ GCSE so a good A Level is achievable. This is possible in most subjects, although clearly, the higher the GCSE the more likely a higher A Level in all subjects. But in Maths, even a Level 9 might be achieved without grasping fully 25% of the GCSE specification. GCSE Level 6/7 student probably hasn’t mastered 50% of the GCSE course. And it really matters.

Lots of parents and students say that they wish people had made it clearer how hard they would find A Level Maths. In selective schools, they often will only let those with 9s do it and even for some of them they will recommend they don’t…..why? Because they know who is actually good at Maths and can cope with the step up and who has simply been coached to scrape the 9. They also know that some of those students with an 8/scrape 9 could achieve extremely good and often top grades in other A Level subjects, but might be stuck with a C or lower or at very best a B at A Level. And they know that they will be better served in applying to Uni with some As and Astars than predictions of a couple of As and a C.

Still people refuse to believe it though. Every school and seemingly everyone knows a student who had a mediocre Maths GCSE who then went onto get an A at A Level. And they think this could be their child. Well it could……but it’s far more likely not to be.

It’s also true that one should consider what the 2 years if studying experience will be like. Not being brilliant or A*/A standard in History or English or a science won’t mean it’s extremely difficult to access the course or produce decent answers. It can still be enjoyable with a sense of achievement. In Maths, if you have to absolutely shave and devote 3x the effort than you do for other subjects, and can even then only just about access a C, or totally fail to grasp some topics….well it’s miserable.

So, that’s not to say no-one should do it. But it is the case that people need to go into it with their eyes wide-open about what it will be like as an experience and the likely outcomes.

You could take the view that a Maths A Level at C/D/E level is still an A Level in Maths and opened doors. That’s probably true. But at the same time it could be that instead of an A/B in another subject. Of course if you want a career or degree that requires Maths, you probably have to push on through. But if you don’t, it’s worth considering very hard if you’re not a top student.

I’m a maths teacher at a grammar school. To do A-level maths, they either must get a grade 8 or 9 at GCSE or in exceptional circumstances a great 7 and a teacher recommendation. People with low 7s at GCSE maths will find maths A-level difficult. Anything lower than a C-grade at A-level maths is not helpful for most people - competitive courses want A-grades or above. The pace we teach at it necessarily fast, to get thru the content. If a student falls behind they can end up falling further behind and it gets more and more painful and dispiriting.

Good algebra skills at GCSE (confidence with eg quadratic inequalities, changing the subject of a formula where the subject appears multiple times, a good graph of graphical/algebraic interpretations of simultaneous equations, completing the square, good competence with laws of surds and indices) is the best predictor of doing well at Alevel.

One week into year 12 we make our new year 12s sit an algebra test on all this. Those that fail have to sit a retest. I then read them the algebra riot act. We write to the parents of those that do poorly and make them come to maths support classes at lunch times.

It is not for the faint-hearted, but lots of students do really love the challenge. They also get huge pride from seeing the results of their Labour. Maths is also a subject where working does make a difference. Some of them are so happy in lessons when they get solutions correct. Lots of them read material for my lessons in advance of the lesson to be able to keep up better. Maths A-level is also much more interesting than maths GCSE - for example - even understanding how calculus works and how it applies to the real world blows their mind.

TLDR - maths is a wonderful subject at A-level and I love teaching it. But only the very able will be able to get thru without serious effort. Be honest with yourself - or I will put you in algebra purgatory for as long as it takes. :)

@WombatChocolate and @Pythag
Thanks, and wise words.

@Needmoresleep Dispiriting as well. Others are breezing through, grasping concepts quickly

@Nomoresleep This is a wise post Ds ( who is not dim he got a 1st in History from a decent university ) My DS was dispirited by having to constantly put his hand up and ask for help for maths and yet his friends got it quickly. but he can grasp facts and make them into a good argument - he is dyslexic and yet he did well in an essay based subject.

I think maths is a very good subject to have

I speak for myself - I lost interest in maths having to work out the after area under a curve - I wonder if my brain is just wired differently , I took a first in Eng Lit - which is not to boast - really not but Eng Lit is an analytical course . I could do that but but not maths

The more I read these comments the more I realise my ds probably should have worked more on A level maths. He was predicted A but got B. He was so worried about history all efforts and time went there to the detriment of maths but beneficial to history grade!
I could see the slip about to occur on last mock where maths slipped badly and teacher comment was an exasperated- he is capable of an A...
All came out in the wash as got university he wanted anyway, and he wouldn't want to take maths further (though seems to have a flair for statistics). I do think elements of maths will be useful for him in his future so I don't think he has regrets.

My DS got a 9 in maths during Covid years. He considered further maths but was dissuaded by the school because they felt it narrowed his options too much. He did the least work in maths because his other choices consumed too much of his time and yet got his best A level grade in the subject! How I wish now he had done A level further maths as I think it would have been less stressful for him.

My son got a 7 at GCSE and an A at A Level! Just shows you what you can do if you are determined enough.

Yes, but he will be one of a tiny minority to achieve that. It is really important that those choosing (and their parents) realise that your son’s experience is one of a tiny minority and is unlikely to be their experience.

Of course, it’s right that they hear about the experience your son had too…it IS possible that someone with a 7 can get an A in A Level Maths. But to just present that, without the data about how uncommon that is, and that it’s not just down to determination and working hard, is really important. The vast vast majority if those with a 7 could work extremely hard and not get an A. Effort is important but in lots of subjects, it’s really not the case that lots of effort can overcome anything.

Great that it worked out so well for your son. I can see why you’d be so proud of him. But this shouldn’t mean a message of ‘those with a 7 can always as get an A if they work hard’ should get out there…..and that’s what people will hear, even if you don’t say ‘always’ …because those with a 7 or even a 6 considering Maths, who want their kids to do it, WANT to hear that message and will latch onto anything which suggests it could be a good idea.

@LuluMorris Great that your DC achieved that. 1 of 9% roughly in that bracket.
There is obviously a balance (as per Noble's table) like @WombatChocolate says.
17% got an E (from a 7) as a comparison. Now maybe they didn't work or just reached their ceiling. (1% got an AStar from a 7!)

It's good to hear DC' experiences regardless of which way it's goes, especially if there are mitigating circumstances for the 'discrepancy'.

'Ceiling' is an interesting one, and obviously hard to predict (before starting something). Prob explains why I got an 'O' grade at A-level, after a B at O-level!

My kids both got 9s at GCSE and took Maths A Level. But one ‘gets’ Maths and one doesn’t.

The one that struggles, we had to pay for extra tutoring. He managed to get an A at A Level but he worked sooo much harder at maths than for his other subjects where he got all A stars. He found it so very hard.

The other child also did FM and found Maths A Level a complete doddle. It was interesting to see how much they differed.

If someone intends to do maths at A level they must be ‘naturally’ good at the subject.
DD1 got an 8 for GCSE but had to work extremely hard to achieve this. She had a lot of extra maths tuition. Despite her grade , I don’t think she would have fared well if she had taken A level Maths.
On the other hand dd2 was brilliant at maths.
She didn’t have any tuition and received a grade 9 at GCSE and an A star at A level.