Design Engineering: UK universities

[Orquid]

DD16 is thinking in studying design engineering at university and we are looking for recommendations on which universities she could apply. We live in London, she thinks she would like to stay in London so thinking Imperial College.

Other options are Bath and Bristol. What other universities do people recommend fir this course? She knows it is competitive, how many universities she needs to apply for? I believe open days have already passed this year.

I think UCL offer architectural design only? She doesn’t want to do that

Would be grateful for any advice, DH and I are both foreigners but kids born and growing up in London. DD wants a lively/busy city

She told me on the weekend that she wanted to do design engineering because she liked the electronic/ mechanic part of product design that’s why we starting looking at universities and requirements. Some universities don’t require physics but many others do require physics.

She got a 9 in physics, chemistry and maths. DH is an engineer and I think she takes more after him.

Based on your last post then looks like she may need/want to change to Physics.

Unless - there are 5 (Product) Design Engineering courses that don't need Physics, that are suitable.
However, if she doesn't have Physics and does do Des Eng, then she may be at a disadvantage v those who do have Physics.

My godson is in his final year at https://tedi-london.ac.uk/ and has absolutely loved it.

It might also be worth looking at the Dyson engineering apprenticeship which is, I believe, focused on product design. They advise, but don't require, physics A level but there is a summer school they have to attend if they don't have physics.

Lots of good information. Thank you; will ask her to look at it.

She is doing an EPQ in animation; will this be any good for university application? or will it be better to get Physics as a 4th A level subject.

Are the jobs prospects for design engineering are better than Product design only?

Re jobs. I work with both product designers and product design engineers within my organisation and have outsourced to a product design company in the past. The product design has always been about the initial concepts and aesthetic look of the prouct where my product design engineers work more on the actual implementation and function. Obviously there can be cross over or they may work in teams. I noticed the Notts and L'boro design eng courses include usability as well which is now super important in med tech (which is my area).

School said is too late to add physics so she is stuck with current choices and whatever universities accept those.

Thing is this OP IMHO:

You choose the subjects you love (hopefully) to study at A level. You look at where they will take you. You do a suitable uni course, and look for a working role that ideally is related.

Or, the other way (so often advised on MN tbh) - what do you want to do for a career? Lawyer, doctor, engineer? What degree do you need? What A levels do you need for that degree? Do those.

But what if the second option sees you saying "well I want to be a doctor so I suppose I had better take biology A level even tho I hate it"? (yes I have heard a 16yo say this). Should they really be trying to be a doctor?

I really believe that if a chosen career means you have to take a disliked subject, that's not the career for you. If she doesn;t enjoy physics, but loves product design, then maybe she is better suited to a job that used PD rather than one that requires physics. That's fine btw. My DD took Eng lit, much disliked on this board, at uni and now works in a low-paying job that is very related to her degree (which is more than I can say haha) - she is happy and I am happy for her. A big salary is all well and good but if it ties you to a subject/job role you hate then it's not e recipe for happiness.

Very best of luck to your DD - I am sure she will find something perfect for her.

If DC hasn't done already then something like this
https://www.thecompleteuniversityguide.co.uk/courses
Enter Engineering Design and search.

Bath - need Physics
Imperial - ok without
Loughborough - ok without
UCL - Architectural Design
Bristol - ok without
Southampton - Mech/Comp Eng and Design
Leeds - Product Design (ok without)
Liverpool - may need Physics depending on Maths A-level type
Glasgow - ok without
Strathclyde - need Physics

Only done 10, but as you can see there are only 4 definites.

Can also do for Product Design, which gives Product Design and Manufacture at Nottingham, for example.

DC may also need to loosen the London/busy city criteria, as they are obv capable of going to most places.

Also, someone better qualified will hopefully let you know if it is better to go for the MEng rather than BEng (think for easier Chartered status).

Northumbria University has always had a strong reputation for product design type degrees.

I am going to disagree with Clary. Maths is a good example. Lots of kids don't like maths, but should be advised to keep it up at A level as the ability to understand and manipulate data is increasingly a key skill for many degree subjects/careers. Its like many things in life. There will be elements of even a dream job which you might not like, but you do them anyway. Medicine is very different from biology A level. You really can enjoy one, but not the other.

Thank you; that’s very helpful.

I think she will try and see what university she gets and she is not happy with it then school told her she can do subject in the gap year.

She said she wants to work fora year to save money for uni so she is not so much in debt.

My son is at TEDI, he's enjoying the course, it works well for him.

@Orquid If she does MEng (and she should) it’s a 4 year degree. Working first, unless it’s highly degree related, really wastes time. Students pay a grad tax. It’s not a standard debt. As you can see there are options at various unis but MEng is the fast route to being a Chartered Engineer and higher pay. She could look for apprenticeships but MEng via these isn’t common.

Northumbria do Electrical and Electronic engineering. Cannot see Design Engineering so do detailed research on courses.

Tizer, I am surprised that you could not find anything.

Northumbria is very famous for its product design courses. There are several. Notably Jonathan Ive studied there, though he is now Chancellor of the Royal College of Art, which in turn has some great design link ups with Imperial at Masters level.

One person we knew who applied for a couple of courses at Northumbria and ended up studying there, also took a close look at the Netherlands. I forget which University but they offered a fabulous multidisciplinary degree that bridged art and engineering.

@Needmoresleep
@TizerorFizz is talking about Design Engineering (which OP sounds like they're leaning to). Northumbria do, as you say, Product Design.

Product design is entirely different. It is NOT engineering. Northumbria require no particular subjects for product design but want a portfolio. So animation might be ok? Not sure it’s a product though. This type of course is entirely different to Engineering where maths is required.

Therefore, @Orquid you can see where the difficulty lies. Some product courses are not engineering at all. She won’t be qualifying for any engineering post grad engineering qualification via the course at Northumbria. Therefore you need to do your homework. Courses that are Engineering must be approved by the Engineering Council as suitable prep for post grad professional qualifications. If she doesn’t want engineering, that’s fine, but she needs to understand the difference between “design” and “engineering” and overlaps. Her A levels and interests might lean more to a course like the one at Northumbria. At this stage she needs more guidance on whether she really understands what engineering is and what product design entails.

Sorry OP. I had read it as your DD knew the general area she was interested in but unsure of the precise course. Hence me suggesting somewhere she might look at. But agree it is product design not engineering.

As well as knowing a couple of DC (with strong grades) who went to Northumbria. We also know someone who studied engineering at Imperial (EEE) then the RCA joint Masters. A different route, but one where you probably need double maths and Physics. All DC seem to have gone on to great careers linked to design.

I suggest your DD read around the various courses mentioned here to help clarify what she is interested in. We also knew someone else with maths and art A levels who after a foundation year at art school realised she really wanted to approach things from an engineering angle so took Physics in a year at a tutorial college. She found learning much easier/more efficient outside school and with a clear motivation.

DD hasn’t got FM or Physics. That doesn’t mean all routes are cut off. Imperial looks a stretch without FM or Physics but others don’t require it. It is important to be realistic and read the A level requirements and course details carefully. Also don’t get fixated on top 10. For Engineering there is a decent choice.

Thank you everyone for the input; very helpful.

Assumming she does decide on Engineering and do physics in the GAAP year; Where does she do that? Do you pay for it? Never heard of the tutorial schools? But all this is new to me

Rather than doing A level physics in a gap year, doing a foundation year might be a much better choice - not having the right A levels is what they are designed for and then you progress onto the degree you want as long as you perform

For a 4 year MEng this makes it 5 years. Not sure that’s wise. There are courses where physics isn’t needed - just fewer to choose from.

4 years minimum for MEng, 5 years if Glasgow or if doing a year in industry at Bristol. As advised above she should research the course content of Bristol and Glasgow which are the main alternatives not stipulating physics. Engineering is based on physics including mechanics and electronics. If she is interested in the latter two then she was poorly informed when she made her A level choices. Another degree type worth considering as she is doing chemistry would be materials science engineering, examples for Birmingham and Imperial below. https://www.birmingham.ac.uk/undergraduate/courses/metallurgy-materials/materials-science-engineering.aspx#CourseDetailsTab

https://www.imperial.ac.uk/study/courses/undergraduate/materials-science-engineering-beng/

Really disagree with @clary! There can be parts of a subject that are enjoyed even if the majority and overall it is not. Physics is broad at a level and sadly not often well taught.
In my personal experience I did not enjoy physics A level but have a happy and successful career as a chartered engineer.

Thank you everyone. a few more questions:

Does she do the foundation year at university? Does she apply for this separately? Or apply for university place first? Some degrees are 4 and 5 years so this will really add up to 5 and 6 years. Not sure a gap year and/or foundation year is really an option; saying that my degree back home was 5 years plus another year due to strikes; but It was free.

Could she do physics now at a tutorial college? This year since school said is too late? To increase her options or just stick up with what she is doing and apply for whichever universities accept that?

I think she may find the love of physics; she got at 9 after all in GCSE.

Can some explain this to me from University of Bath:

’you will need a strong performance in both mathematics and physics or engineering’

Does her DT course apply for engineering? Is it worth applying or are we wasting our time?

https://www.bath.ac.uk/courses/undergraduate-2023/mechanical-engineering/meng-integrated-design-engineering/#entry-requirements

I think her options at the moment are IC, Loughborough, Glasgow, Bristol. With current subjects for an engineering design/ product design engineering degree.

I don’t think she was given much advice reg A levels selection. She comes to me for advice and I come to mumsnet as I grew up in a totally different system.