Classics from “scratch”?

[TabithaTwitchet]

Dd has just started 6th form college, and is studying classical civilisation (a brand new subject to her), Spanish and history.
She is already starting to think ahead to university, and at the moment her top choice is classics.
She has never studied Latin or Greek before, but is enjoying learning a bit in a lunchtime club.

We have looked at unis together - there aren’t that many that do it.

Dd really likes the idea of studying the ancient languages in particular, so is more drawn to Classics rather than Classical Studies/Civilisation courses.

Does anyone have any experience of starting a classics degree without experience of an ancient language? Is she likely to be in the minority and always playing catch up to those with A Level?
Is there anywhere I can find entry data about size of intake and what quals they have?

It looks like at Oxford the course is structured so those from scratch spend an extra year catching up, but for eg at Birmingham you can access the Classics degree with either Latin A level, GCSE or just a MFL GCSE. Dd has 2 MFL GCSEs (German and Spanish), but is that just giving herself far more work?

Dd so far likes the look of Oxford, UCL, Birmingham, Liverpool, Royal Holloway, Reading and Lincoln purely for the course, which does seem a fairly wide spread in terms of entry requirements- any specific experiences of studying classics at any of these would be welcomed.

She would possibly apply for joint Honours classics and Spanish at Ox, RHUL and Liverpool (the others don’t offer it).

Hi OP I have limited knowledge (haha! on anything!) but my DD applied for class civ (not classics) at Warwick and Brum (she ended up doing her other choice of subject) - we went to the classics offer day at Warwick and I deffo got the impression that the classics students there were taking Latin or Greek A level, sorry. I mean I didn't tsalk to them all but those I did, yes, studying classic for A level. There were not very many (like, a dozen) before everyone shouts that very few schools teach these subjects!

Her proposed course of class civ would have also involved her learning Latin or Greek - but if this was ab initio that was much more usual, they said - so this might be a better way? Yes MFL was requested (DD did MFL at GCSE and als A level) as proof of linguistic ability.

Sorry my post is not very clear! I mean that the offer day was a mix, and those applying for Classics seemed mostly to be studying A level Latin or Greek; those applying for Classical Civilisation - which also required study of L or G, in general were studying more things like history, Eng lit, MFL. And when I said "Her proposed course" I meant my DD not yours!

DD did this but focused only on Ancient Greek. Scottish University so very modular and she did all sorts of courses for the first 2 years before settling on Classical Studies (so, in English) but she loved learning the language and was not alone in having no experience of it.

Neither are that easy languages to learn (I did both at Alevel many many years ago). I'd suggest looking at a Civ or ancient History course which offers optional modules in languages rather than Classics in case she finds the languages tough. Latin is probably OK for someone with other MFLs but Greek is a very differnet ball game and IME you either get it as a language and find it intuitive or you really really struggle. Have a look at the courses at Cardiff and Nottingham which both offer optional language modules which might be better than Classics ab initio

Thank you, food for thought.

It is actually Ancient Greek that has supercharged dd’s enthusiasm, she loves it. But only studying it at a very elementary level one hour a week at the moment, so perhaps she hasn’t got a proper overview yet.

We hadn’t thought of looking at Ancient history degrees too, we will take a look, and at the class civ degrees too. Probably best to spend this year looking at a wide sweep and narrowing down.

Dd did like the look of Nottingham’s degree structure very much. But a relative had a difficult time with very noisy and expensive accommodation there and hated it, ended up transferring to a different uni, so Dd is put off.

My DS has just started a Classics degree. His teacher recommended summer schools run by JACT in both Latin and Ancient Greek which he attended and found to be excellent. There is plenty of info online about their 2 week residential courses which run during the summer holidays so take a look. There is a cost associated with attending but financial support is available in some circumstances.

hi, my daughter did exactly what you described: classical civilisation A level, which inspired a wish to do Classics (not Classical Civilisation or Ancient History, as she wanted to include a language). Cambridge was impossible as it required Latin A level, IIRC, but there were other possibilities including, again IIRC, Oxford. Anyway, she went to a good northern university where they taught Ancient Greek from scratch to those who hadn’t done it before, so yes it can be done and I don’t think there was any disadvantage to those students starting from scratch.

It is indeed possible to begin a Classics degree without having done A levels in Latin or Greek.
Oxford classics undergraduate degree is four years for everyone, with four different strands: one for those who have A levels in both languages, one for those who have not studied either language and two for either Latin or Greek but not both. They sit different langauge exams throughout the course but end up with the same degree. my impression from speaking with students is that those who arrive with no background in the language(s) have to work much harder, with intensive daily language classes. (Those who already know the languages are meant to work just as hard but I know some just slide by…)

The course will be revised in some ways over the next few years so best to check for updates.

i agree with pp re JACT. The summer programmes are excellent and would give your daughter a strong foundation, as well as confirmation as to whether she wishes to pursue a language-based classics degree or would prefer to study the history, art, philosophy, etc without focus on language.

Not sure about other Unis but DD's friend went to Oxford to do Classics and hadn't studied Greek or Latin. She had an A* language A. Level though.

DD is applying for Classics and French with no Latin, Greek or Classics background. There are a grand total of 6 unis that offer this - the London ones wanted Latin A-level. She's interested in the language too, and a MFL A-level is required as a pp said. The courses seem to vary in the intensity of study, e.g. Oxford would have a language only foundation year, whereas Exeter has a range of levels of study depending on prior experience. Memory is a bit hazy but I think the Glasgow course ended up specialising in Latin, Greek or ancient history, you couldn't do it all. But apart from Oxford, most degrees seem modular.

Agree that a summer school or online course is a good idea. If eligible, there are free options as well as the JACT (that does look very good, but we didn't spot it in time).

I'd forgotten the JACT courses - I went on the Cheltenham Greek course a couple of times many many years ago and loved it. City Lit offer some online Greek courses which I think are based on the JACT text book Reading Greek. https://www.citylit.ac.uk/courses/languages/classical-languages/classical-and-new-testament-greek?gad=1&gclid=EAIaIQobChMIkdCVsvjogQMVQ4FQBh0QLwxFEAAYAiAAEgKINvD_BwE

Her Spanish will help her a bit with Latin, but I see her interest is Ancient Greek!

Thank you for the links to the summer courses, that looks great!
Dd is positively ecstatic at the prospect of saving up money from her Saturday job in order to spend a week of her summer holidays staying in a posh boarding school and studying Ancient Greek

Have just looked at Oxford website and there is no mention of a required foundation year for those who have not studied Greek or Latin. The course is four years for everyone.

I think it must have changed since a friend's DD did it when I think the no classical langs at A level route was indeed a year more (never called a foundation year though).

The difference now is that both routes are four years, but those going in with one or both of Latin/Greek at A level must study both languages, while those without that background will start doing just one of the ancient languages (sounds like Greek for OP's DD!) and can add the other later as an option.

I know uni students studying ancient history at BA going on to MA and picking up Latin or Greek or Egyptian Hieroglyphs or Cuneform at masters level.

Studying it at undergraduate is fine and most students do then as most sixth forms don’t do the Latin/greek a levels.

@TabithaTwitchet There is no need for your DD to do that.
The JACT Greek summer school- yes, held at Bryanston a school for two weeks- award bursaries for students from low income families.
I’m on my tiny phone - and haven’t deduced how to copy and post links from it 🤣- otherwise I’d send a link.
Iirc, applications open in Feb’ish.
My DD was awarded a bursary to attend and did so at the end of Yr12 ( 2021).

I think that there is some confusion over the way in which you can go to Oxford to study CLassics without the languages at A level. As @Inamuddle36 said - the Oxford Classics degree (actually called Literae Humaniores) is a four year course with four different study pathways depending on whether you studied both, either or neither of the languages at A level. So you can go straight to undergrad study with neither Latin nor Greek. It is really tough though - one of my DDs friends is on the course for those with Latin but not Greek and has daily Greek lessons and is not finding it easy.

The foundation year is a different thing which is aimed at widening participation - it is for state school pupils in disadvantaged circumstances which prevent them from getting the usual AAA offer. It is not part of an Oxford degree but is a one year humanities course leading to a certificate. However, if you pass the course you are automatically offered a place to study at Oxford on a number of degree courses including Classics, History, English etc. https://www.ox.ac.uk/admissions/undergraduate/increasing-access/foundation-year Cambridge have a similar programme.

@londonmummy1966 that may well be the case. However @TenSheds has a DD that is looking for entrance in 2024 to do joint honours in classics and MFL which @TabithaTwitchet DD may well consider?
Again, I can’t copy it paste on my phone but if you look at the Mods handbook for joint honours it does ‘block out’ the first year for ab initio classics students, making the degree 5 years with the compulsory year abroad?

*the joint honours degree 5 years.

Yes, that’s right @ProggyMat, Dd was looking at joint hons with Spanish, which is 5 years at Oxford, but you don’t start your MFL until second year, I think. Which is a big time commitment, (but I suppose the year in Spain is a bit of a bonus.) She wouldn’t qualify for a foundation year.

It’s nice to hear about others applying for similar, and doing it without studying the languages at school. Makes me think it might be doable!

I am not au fait with the degree offerings at St Andrews but I was very tempted to try learning Sumerian as part of their summer school offerings: https://cas.wp.st-andrews.ac.uk/ancient-voices/.

I did a classics and ancient history degree with no prior experience of ancient language. I wasn’t the only one with no experience either and found my university catered to this (they offered beginner, intermediate and advanced language modules in Latin and Greek to cater to all abilities). I managed fine although will say Greek was harder to master than Latin!

Sorry, lazy phrasing; you're all quite right, it's not the widening access foundation year, but is intensive language learning for a year before starting the MFL part, so I have been thinking of it that way.

It's good to hear about other potential Classics applicants, on MN, TSR and irl it seems to be mostly STEM students.

Can I ask if anyone has direct experience of the Summer school for Latin and Greek at St.John’s Durham? Particularly the age spread. We’ve identified her level.

DD is at Classics High School in Italy and is sure to have a Greek or Latin translation as part of her final exam in 2 years’ time.
Since she’s already fluent in English, she’s never had a “study holiday” away from the family and this would give her a chance to expand her language skills and a taster of University life in a beautiful city!
Her brother did similar in piano at Chetham’s in Manchester and had a great time. But he was 16 and a lot of the activities weren’t available to him. He had a U18 wristband and was kept in for the Gay Pride weekend, for example.
For that reason I’m curious to know the age distribution at that particular Summer School.
TIA.