Classics from “scratch”?

[TabithaTwitchet]

Dd has just started 6th form college, and is studying classical civilisation (a brand new subject to her), Spanish and history.
She is already starting to think ahead to university, and at the moment her top choice is classics.
She has never studied Latin or Greek before, but is enjoying learning a bit in a lunchtime club.

We have looked at unis together - there aren’t that many that do it.

Dd really likes the idea of studying the ancient languages in particular, so is more drawn to Classics rather than Classical Studies/Civilisation courses.

Does anyone have any experience of starting a classics degree without experience of an ancient language? Is she likely to be in the minority and always playing catch up to those with A Level?
Is there anywhere I can find entry data about size of intake and what quals they have?

It looks like at Oxford the course is structured so those from scratch spend an extra year catching up, but for eg at Birmingham you can access the Classics degree with either Latin A level, GCSE or just a MFL GCSE. Dd has 2 MFL GCSEs (German and Spanish), but is that just giving herself far more work?

Dd so far likes the look of Oxford, UCL, Birmingham, Liverpool, Royal Holloway, Reading and Lincoln purely for the course, which does seem a fairly wide spread in terms of entry requirements- any specific experiences of studying classics at any of these would be welcomed.

She would possibly apply for joint Honours classics and Spanish at Ox, RHUL and Liverpool (the others don’t offer it).

Just to clarify on the structure of the Oxford Classics courses:

OP's child is hoping to do Classics and Modern languages (CML). There are two different pathways through that degree, and both are open to students who are beginners in an ancient language.

1. You take the same degree as straight Classics students for the first 5 terms. During this time you learn one ancient language from scratch, along with the many Classics students who are also doing this. This is not a qualifying/foundation year, it's exactly the same year that all students take on the Classics degree, it's just that the language classes and outcomes are different in the exams depending on whether you have a language from school or not. You don't do the modern language during that time but you do ancient history, philosophy, and archaeology alongside hte language and literature.

2. You do a qualifying year in which you learn one ancient language. At the end of that year you are assessed just on Latin/Greek. In your second year, you then start to study the modern language alongside the ancient (as opposed to not doing that until the start of your third year. This is just a language and literature degree - you don't cover the ancient history etc aspects of Classics.

For beginner students, both courses are 5 years (including a year abroad), and the degree paths from year 3 onwards are identical.

If you are a beginner, the main difference really is whether you want to do a degree which is more focused on language and literature (and brings in the modern language earlier) or a degree which is more interdisciplinary and allows you to study history, art, etc.

You don't have to decide which one to choose when applying, because they are the same UCAS course code. You would probably be asked either after applying or at interview which you plan to take.

More generally, I would say that the Oxford courses (both Classics and joint degrees) are very language-focused. They suit students who really enjoy language learning and who love the idea of being able to read texts in original. Of course you also do plenty of other stuff, but the amount of language study required is higher than anywhere else in the UK. If you are the sort of student who isn't really that into the idea of languages, you would probably be much happier applying for a Classics degree elsewhere, where the requirement for how much language study is required is much lower, and you can do much more in-translation work.

Finally I'd second the recommendation of the JACT language summer schools. They are fantastic, and there are bursaries available for people who need them. They are also the perfect way to find out how you feel about learning an ancient language.

I have a Classics degree from Cambridge many moons ago. Absolutely wonderful degree subject that I would highly recommend. BUT the only thing I would say is that anyone doing Classics without having studied the languages before should be mentally prepared for an intensive year of language tuition to be incredibly intensive! Rewarding but very hard work.

MOstly she coudl start from scratch if taking a Classics degree. She could also study Classical Studies which is studied in translation so the language is not needed.

My daughter did this course about 10 years ago, when she was 17, and the majority were of a similar age. There were a few who were on a gap year and about to start university as well as a couple of middle aged ladies. Other than that they were sixth form students like my daughter and her two friends who she went with. They had a great week and were very impressed with the teaching. My daughter liked it so much that she ended up doing her degree at Durham :)

@Chudney Thank you so much for that! Just the age group we were hoping for

Aw, bringing back happy memories. I did Classics at Cambridge years ago, with Greek more or less from scratch. But had done 6 years of Latin previously. I'm with OP's DD, it's the Greek that's exciting. Latin was lots of battles and 'are we as good as the Greeks yet?' literature. But Greek. Homer. Oh wow. Still makes me tingle, just thinking about it ...
I was the Bryanston cohort of the JACT Greek summer school. Most unexpectedly brilliant two weeks of my life, thanks in part to amazing teachers, and also to lots of snogging in the grounds.
There were about 10 of us 'intensive Greek' peeps in my year at Cambridge. 1 missed the memo about going to JACT and also about turning up a couple of weeks early in the first term for some head-start lessons, and she never caught up. She switched to a different degree course. The rest of us loved it, and were a very united brother-and-sisterhood (as were the classics dept more widely). After 2 years, we were fully caught up. We never felt lesser than those who had A level in both languages (and felt more than, in some ways, as 3 A levels inc 2 dead languages is quite a narrow sixth form experience!)
These days Cambridge also does a 4 year course for both languages from scratch. I imagine the Latin and Greek from scratch people would bond similarly to my intensive Greek cohort. If it sounds like a thrilling adventure to DD, she should definitely do it! She sounds like a linguist at heart, and if she goes for Ancient History without an ancient language element, she may feel a bit frustrated. Studying sources in translation does mean you're very dependent on the translator, who will inevitably have added their own interpretation to the original.

DD4 is currently a fourth year undergraduate at an Oxford college which has a very strong rep for Classics. Although she went to a grammar school it offered no classical language even at GCSE and no Classical Civilisation or Ancient History at any point either. So she literally started from complete scratch. She learned Latin for Mods and is doing Greek for Finals alongside all the other course in History, Lit, Art etc that are on offer. She got a very strong First in her Mods so it's clearly possible to keep up with the students who are on the other pathways/ have an A level in Latin and/or Greek. She's lucky in that she has outstanding tutors including one from All Souls and is hugely enjoying her time in Oxford. The workload is immense. All that said, she has always had a pretty extraordinary aptitude for languages. Her HT was enormously supportive and arranged for the school to fund the Durham course for her - agree with the post above about age range.

Thank you for all the information!
Dd has now expanded her search to include Scotland and Wales, and added so many new possibilities to her shortlist that it was looking a bit daunting.

(Younger Dd and DS spent most of Sunday compiling a “completely foolproof” (according to DS) colourful spreadsheet that ranks all the courses according to a ridiculous number of different variables, and then tells you your five favourites. Not sure it is as foolproof as it could be, because it says Dd favourite is Newcastle, but she denies this )

Agree with pp, dd is a linguist at heart and would probably rise to the challenge of intensive language learning.
She had always planned to study 2 modern languages at A level, but timetabling constraints meant she couldn’t.
I suppose lots of people start a MFL from scratch at uni and that’s now seen as completely normal, but this thread makes me hopeful that lots start ancient languages too.

OP DD4 has done all the Open Days and interview sessions for her college (they still have current students in to help with the online interviews) and one often asked question is: would it be 'easier' to apply for Classics rather than CAAH to which her resounding answer is always absolutely no. Without a real talent for and liking of learning languages a student will be absolutely sunk with Classics II. It's a phenomenally demanding course on the language front. The tutors will weed out the weak students but then that student is left with a rejection rather than a shot at CAAH. Obviously not relevant to your DD but definitely a thing for those who think Classics II is an easy way in.

Maybe warn your DD of two things: not all colleges at Oxford are as welcoming of the ab initio students. Also, many of the other courses offered around the UK are really quite light on the language learning front. Very kind of the sibs to make the spreadsheet but there's quite of lot of scratching beneath the surface which needs to be done. If she's also interested in Cambridge then maybe just check out the very different structure of the course - just a different approach for those without an ancient language in hand.

@goodbyestranger Are you able to give any hints as to the more/less welcoming colleges? DD is applying for a joint honours Classics II + MFL, from a state comp background - she's expressed a preference for one of the less well-known colleges, and it seemed very friendly on the open day...
(Also, thank you generally for your comments on this and the Oxbridge threads, your depth of experience with Oxford offspring is appreciated)

Thank you GoodbyeStranger, that is very helpful.
How much of the degree is language based does get a rating on the spreadsheet, though it is sometimes hard to tell from the websites. Disappointing if there is not that much at other universities.

We had to look up CAAH, but Dd is definitely not interested in archaeology anyway, and wouldn’t want to apply for that.

We would also be interested to know which Oxford colleges are more/less keen on ab initio. We have friends who live near Oxford, and so Dd has visited a few times - she particularly likes Lady Margaret Hall for the location and grounds, hopefully they are welcoming of new classicists!

And she did have a look at Cambridge, but is less keen on it than Oxford, because you can only do classics and MFL in the first two years, and have to drop the classics for your final year.

I would recommend looking at Scottish unis as the first two years are quite modular so there's probably an opportunity to pick up Green alongside Classics. I tried out both Classical Civ and Celtic Civ but settled on Celtic.

LMH isn't one of the colleges DD4 was advised to avoid.

Ah TenSheds sorry, reading from the bottom up. I'll message if that's ok - probably not sensible for me to name colleges on the board. There's always a chance that tutors change and the mood shifts.

Yes, wasn't expecting you to name and shame publicly! PM received, thanks

Is she good at languages or maths? Is she fanatical about grammar? Is she a linguistic pedant?

Learning Latin and Greek can be a lot of fun but it's an utterly different type of subject from Classical civilisation.

I do not have direct experience of classics but know quite a few classicists. Learning and translating Latin and Greek to a reasonable level seems easiest for those with a logical, mathematical aptitude, more so than most MFLs. However a classics degree importantly also requires ability and core skills for humanities as the language is simply a tool for what is essentially a broad humanities degree.
Some classics degrees are structured so that a beginner will only have to take beginner / intermediate language and translational modules during their degree.

That’s interesting a couple of people have mentioned maths.
Pretty much every other member of DH’s extended family is a total maths geek who studied (or plans on studying) maths at university, but Dd herself has always been resolutely unmathematical.

She is very good at grammar though, her MFL teachers have often remarked on it, and she has always been good at history and English. Classics seems like a good fit, it’s just a shame if others are starting from different (higher) levels.

She will be assessed based on the level she is starting from. Being a beginner doesn’t mean she won’t do as well in her degree course (at whatever uni she goes to) as there are different pathways and different exams depending on language experience

I have taught beginner Latin and Greek students at several different unis. The ones who work hard (and have aptitude for language learning) catch up and make rapid progress, and after a year of an intensive course can read texts in original languages just as well as those who studied the languages at school. However, it does require hard work and motivation.

I would say that it is the aptitude for grammar that is essential rather than maths - many mathemaically minded people find Latin straightforward as it tends to follow a fairly simple set of grammatical rules. Greek is a bit more complex as a language and people tend to "get it" or not but if your daughter has a bent for MFL I'm sure she will.