Yr 13 DD head in sand

[Tara24]

DD has no idea what she wants to do . She says she regrets her A level choices and wishes she had done better at her science GCSEs. She refuses to visit universities and hasn't started her personal statement.

I've tried everything I can think of to help, but it ends in an argument.

The school have a careers guidance person who has spoken to her, but no change.

I'm at a loss. I've suggested a gap year or just applying for a general type degree to keep options open. She just says she hates studying but she also says she wants to go to university. 🤔

Anyone had one like this? Please give me hope.

@MoreOfThis Thank you! Honestly this time last year I was in despair.

I'd not read a couple of the later responses but 'unblocking' a couple of her concerns really helped DD move on and in hindsight is good advice.

19

Perhaps a liberal arts degree. Then she can turn her undecidedness into a positive.

She sounds depressed to me.

She just cries every time it's mentioned and says that everyone else at school knows what they want. They are working on their personal statements at the moment and she hasn't even started hers.

Bless her. DD was like this until very recently, including the crying. I told her that everyone else thinks they know what they want, but a lot of them will be wrong.

It sounds like she thinks the most important thing is keeping up with everyone else, and going to uni is part of that, even though she doesn't like studying and doesn't have a path in mind. She needs to understand that there is way more to this than whether you are in the same year as your friends. This is about figuring out what she wants to be learning and thinking about for the next few years, it's nothing to do with what her friends are choosing.

There is absolutely nothing wrong with not knowing yet, loads of people are in the same position and you can only go wrong by making a rushed decision because all your friends are. Just tell her that none of it matters - she has plenty of time - she can slowly get her head around what kind of courses are available and maybe something will grab her, maybe it won't. If nothing grabs her before the end of Jan, she can still apply for 2024, or leave it until next time, or do something else entirely. If she fancies something she doesn't have the right A levels for, maybe she does an extra year to add another one. She is obviously bright, so she has lots of options - the most important thing is to get good grades and keep as many of them open as possible.

So get her to pick a few of the bigger unis, eg Birmingham, Manchester, UCL and look through their A-Z of undergraduate courses. Doesn't have to be somewhere she would ever want to go. She may not find a specific course she likes at those, but maybe an area of study will come to her and she can do some more focused research. (Also, it doesn't have to be something with an obvious job at the end of it, very few degrees are about that, so she doesn't have to decide on a career now, just look for something she'd like to learn about.)

Do you think without really being able to articulate it she's worried about leaving home?

After all we expect Y 13 to throw themselves into making massive efforts into leaving behind everything they have ever known, wouldn't be surprising if there is ambivalence for her.

Maybe if you can reassure her that growing up and emotionally separating from your birth family is a long old process that only starts when you go to uni - it's not a sudden cut off but Halle a gradually as you move towards your own partner and family.

I have a child who is also unsure of herself and doesnt get much reward from studying. You have my sympathy as it's hard to help them. One thing that's worked in the past is to get her rank lots of potential choices as it helps her organise her thoughts. The top ranked option might not be the final answer but it has helped her eventually to get to a positive decision.

Do you know anyone who has been to Uni who is closer in age to your DD, 20s or 30s?

Could be a cousin of theirs, a neighbour, family friend. Just sometimes hearing exactly what you are saying from someone that isn’t their mum can really help.

It doesn’t matter how much you know it doesn’t matter, because it is coming from you, she doesn’t hear it. I did something similar for 3 family friends and went through a prospectus, gave them permission to not have to have it all figured out & just talking about my own similar experiences. They later all admitted that they knew their parents were right, they were just so overwhelmed that they couldn’t think logically.

Just to add - I also have a DS who wouldn't talk about uni at all until around about now. He was driving me mad. But after many fruitless and tense conversations about it he finally told me he was scared of everything changing. I realised he probably had no idea what uni would be like, but was feeling a lot of pressure that he had to go to one.

I told him - quite naturally he didn't know what a uni is like, not his fault because he had never been to one, so it would be worth having a look before deciding whether it's something he wanted.

We had missed all the open days (he wouldn't have gone anyway) but he did agree to a wander around a uni to see what it was like. I took him to Exeter which is a small, safe campus and he immediately got it and said he could imagine himself there. After that he was much better, he had an image of himself as an undergraduate, it was like he grew 2 inches that day.

So if you think there's a chance that your DD is scared, and part of that is not knowing what uni might be like, try and take her to one. (Do a bit of research though, find one you think she will be excited by - if I had shown DS Manchester instead of Exeter he would never have applied )

Could she be in a sink costs fallacy situation.

If she wants to start a STEM career, she is currently on the wrong path with those subjects so she has to change. And that’s OK.

She could potentially get into a course in the Republic of Ireland through the CAO system.
https://www.cao.ie/index.php?page=scoring&s=gce
and that’s OK too.

but she must start her considerations from the reality of where she is.

but she says she will then be behind and doesn't want that.

Please assure her that this is utter nonsense @Tara24
So many students take gap years that there are loads that start year one of a degree at 19. A foundation year is excellent preparation for a degree, and more students are doing a foundation year than ever.

OP, she sounds scared. And it is scary. 13 years she’s been in the school system and the teachers just expect them to know what to do next when they have no concept of what "next" looks like. And the pressure that schools put on pupils to go to university these days is horrendous. It's not because they want them to succeed, it's because it looks good for them when all the pupils get into university regardless of whether that's what the pupils want or not.

I was your DD. I had no idea what to do next. And my teachers were really angry at me because I was refusing to apply to university when I didn’t know if that was the right path for me. So I just walked out at the end of the year with no plan.

And you know what? I found my way. Got a job. Eventually went to uni. Got my degree. Got another job. And I'm happy with my life now.

I would say you have to get this idea that she will be "behind" out of her head. Life after school isn't like that. Everyone from her year group will disperse and do different things and no one is ahead or behind anyone. That belief is holding her back massively and adding pressure that she doesn't need.

Good luck to her - she will find her path eventually

I’m an academic so perhaps some advice from the other side might be helpful.

I would step back. There are too many people who go to university because (via parents or peers or schools) it’s considered the next natural step and all other options are somehow inferior. Many of them end up having unsatisfactory experiences and have to change tack later in life when they have figured themselves out a bit more.

I would start with some gentle probing about why she is so fixed on going to university straight from school. As you’ve said OP, it’s not the only way but it seems like she’s glommed onto that as something she must do - but then falls apart when she has to execute the steps to make that happen.

Maybe articulating her reasons and bringing them to the surface would be helpful.

This was my DD at the start of upper sixth too. She got decent A level grades and did an art foundation year at our local university. Things became clearer once she had her A level grades and today we are moving her into her new university accommodation which is a couple of hours away from home. I was at a loss what to do too when I was at your point, it's hard. My SIL was a great help as DD would talk to her as auch loved aunty but one step away from mum and dad. Do you have a family member or family friend who would chat to her?

What about something really flexible/varied like this:

Liberal Arts BA | Undergraduate Study | University of Exeter

Has she done any volunteering/work/work experience that could help eliminate a few directions?

She is probably procrastinating because of a fear of making a duff decision.

DD has just gone into yr12, but I have taken the view that we 'have a look/give it a try' and reject the things/subjects/places that don't appeal.

Is there a nearby University you could visit/one near family or friends?

FWIW I was at Uni with a geographer who went on to become a fantastic doctor.

It's such a fine line to balance, for us, for them and for their schools! My DC1 thinks they know what they'd like to go into but it's not something that requires (or particularly values) a degree. School has always considered DC1 to be very academic and pushed for them to apply for uni even though DC1 was reluctant. The one teacher that grasped the lack of interest in doing a degree mentioned that a local university offers one year foundation diplomas in a number of subjects, a couple of which are vaguely related to the industry DC1 is interested in. A quick look online revealed the open day was a week away so DC1 booked onto it with the intention of looking to confirm they weren't interested but so they could tell school they'd looked and knew for certain it wasn't for them. Because it's so local I went too and agreed we'd go for a maximum of an hour and would then go for lunch.

What actually happened was that the opportunity to wander around, see the facilities and to recognise a whole load of people from school, primary school etc. meant that we were there for ages and DC1 came away feeling quite excited by the prospect of doing a one year course with no fees (only for those under 19 at the start). Having looked around that uni, DC1 decided they may as well do a UCAS application for similar courses both to get school off their back and to get some days off school to visit a couple of open days. The UCAS application ended up being for three courses related to the foundation diploma and two that aren't really linked at all but are something they're interested in. One of the universities had a really clear guide on the subject page of the website on what they'd be looking for in a personal statement so DC1 used that to structure it and was able to recycle most of that for the foundation diploma application.

For my DC1, sitting down with me and essentially agreeing to treat the UCAS application as something of a game to be played to get school to back off was successful. It took the pressure off it all being about DC1's future and became more of a homework assignment that needed to be done but without any emotional investment. When the invitations for interviews started to come in, DC1 still wasn't invested in going to uni but decided the interviews would be useful practice. They ended up with five offers, one unconditional and an unconditional offer for the foundation diploma. They've accepted the uni place on a deferred basis (but with no real intention of going) and will be starting the foundation diploma this month. I'm hoping they'll enjoy the taste of uni life the foundation diploma will give but also buy some time to see where life takes them.

Something like a foundation diploma in media production or creative media may be of interest to an arty person who likes current affairs and plays computer games.

Aaahhhh...this is what went on with me. I didn't know how to admit it to anyone. I just wasn't a very mature 18 year old. The teachers knew I wasn't, I suspect, and pushed me into applying to a university away from home as they stressed that it would be good for me to do that as it would help me to become independent etc. I strongly didn't want to do that but just went along with it and because of that just picked any old uni and any old course without looking closely at it. I mean, it was a decent uni. But it just wasn't the right decision and I knew it all along and was dreading going. I didn't want to let my proud parents down. I didn't want to tell my friends because they were all exciting about going to uni and I felt like a freak saying I was dreading it.

I did go, but only lasted a few weeks. Even if I'd got over the anxiety and homesickness I knew almost immediately that the course wasn't for me. Even then, I was still floundering about the alternatives and my mum didn't help because she was panicking about me being a "drop-out doleite" for the rest of my life and took over, ringing a local university to see if I could do a similar course there, as she thought it was just homesickness that was causing all my angst.

In reality, I was just lost and floundering and didn't know what the hell I wanted to do. I secretly HAD known what I wanted to do a couple of years earlier, which was primary teaching, but unfortunately because I shone in a language, my teachers kind of steered me down that route and told me that teaching was stressful etc and not using my languages was a waste etc etc. All someone else's opinion, all the way through, and not me listening to my gut.

I really feel for your daughter.

Just wanted to offer some solidarity @Tara24 , my DD is exactly the same. No advice unfortunately because we are still living it too. We went to a uni open day yesterday and it just prompts despair. She wishes she'd done different subjects, has no idea what she wants to do, no idea where she wants to go. Not sure she wants to go to uni but also adamant she doesn't want to take a gap year or start working.
She's frustrated she didn't work harder at GCSE, frustrated she didn't do an EPQ, frustrated she chose hard a level subjects because now she may not get the grades she would need to get to uni. I have no idea how to help!

Another academic here, and former admissions tutor. We see this all the time and whilst it feels awful, it is pretty typical.

Your DD needs to know that loads of students do gap years and get more comfortable with themselves in the process. When they begin uni no one is asking how old they are but amongst my personal tutees they are typically happy to be there and it shows in all sorts of ways. They’ve usually learnt to organise themselves and make their way in the world. That’s a huge thing in itself.

Sadly we also know that a significant minority of students will experience stress and interrupted studies owing to MH problems. In two years DD is not going to look around and see that all of her friends have been on a straight path to success. Often the smartest thing one can to is take the time to get things right and get off to a good start. The gap year might make that possible.

But DD might not see it this way. She is clearly bright. If she can figure out what degree programme she wants, she should be comfortable investing in a Foundation Year if necessary — by this I mean making the investment of time, as the student loan will cover it. What is one more year compared to the rest of her life? She is too intelligent to be short sighted about this.

Of course the ideal would be if DD finds a degree programme that uses her current A levels and genuinely enthuses her. I also wonder about Game Design, various Media and Comms programmes or possibly something to prepare her for work in the Third Sector where she could bring her A Level skills to bear, if there is a cause she is passionate about. Her PGs should make applications to good programmes in these areas viable. Good luck to her.

Totally agree with poetry, she is far to intelligent to be shortsighted about taking a gap year.

My DS applied for a competitive degree and didn't get in. He knew he might not and the plan was to apply again.

However he changed his mind. Got a PT job, was quickly made FT and then promoted to Manager.

Applied to Uni for a different course with his grades in hand and it has been such a stress free process compared to doing his Uni application previously.

Plus he's gained a level of maturity and a willingness to go to Uni abd study that perhaps weren't there before.

I should imagine a huge number of people do their degrees after 18, certainly some of the happier and most successful people I know have come to education a little later.

Is it worth considering Scottish universities where you can take unrelated modules in your first two years then decide what you want to specialise in?

That's interesting, I didn't know you could do that.

Thank you all so much. I have been reading all of your suggestions..I have found out that the local college does foundation diplomas and showed her that she has those on offer and can stay at home. I've also showed her some degrees with foundation Years. She said she's made a list of unis to visit which I've suggested as a look and see.. She feels much better.

That sounds like incredible progress.

She might have only just turned 17, so not an adult. Of course 17 year olds (and young adults) need guidance. There seems to be an odd idea on MN that offering any sort of guidance is ‘pushing them into something’ and children should be cast adrift at midnight the moment they turn 18 or they will turn into a pumpkin or something.