Tell me about Durham

[Durhamm]

DD has Durham on her list of potential unis but she has never been, can't make the open day and it's a long way for us to visit.

She is looking at one of the joint hons degrees via nat sci.

As far as I can see, lots of people like it for the college system and the formals, but DD isn't bothered one way or the other about those. So what else is good / bad about Durham? A family member went there and didn't have a great experience but we'd like a second opinion and I know there are many Durhamites here.

She wants self catering accommodation, great teaching, to be challenged academically, a diverse and interesting bunch of people to meet, lots of fun things to do when not studying. She is not particularly into team sports, but likes music, going to gigs, cycling, green spaces. Space generally would be good - she found Bristol a bit crowded and much preferred the vibe of the campuses at Birmingham and Nottingham.

Please tell me everything you know, good or bad! Does Durham have lots of other positives apart from the college system, living in a castle and the formals?

It's funny, I was in Durham last week. If you lived where I do you'd be really impressed by the range of shops, bars, cafes, eateries, clubs!

Reminds me of when I went on an open day at Bristol years ago. Some snooty posh bloke telling me the place was on par with Oxbridge and we’d better consider ourselves lucky if they gave anyone a place. The crowd was posh, conformist and white. I declined the offer.

I was thinking about this too - wondering if there are other universities with such a disparity between the socioeconomic demographic of the intake and the local population.

Scroll around on the map and it is easy to deprivation levels in and around Durham. Something of a mix, although overall erring towards the more deprived end of the scale.

https://durhamcounty.maps.arcgis.com/apps/MapJournal/index.html?appid=d07c4dd2015b4f699c76eb1a4335bf2b

and in the latest ST guide (base data presumably from HEPA) Durham ranks bottom in the overall Social Inclusion table.

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/uk-university-rankings

I've not got a Times sub, and the above link seems to allow access to much of the data

This isn't about bashing Durham, its just the plain facts.

Social Inclusion for England and Wales - lowest and highest 20. Bit surprised to see Southampton Uni quite so high in the latter

Social Inclusion for Scotland shown separately

Thanks as ever boys. What sir the black achievement gap and how is that quantified/measured, do you know?

Liverpool , if you look at boys data?

I think the ST metrics methodology might be behind the paywall - although presumably they are sourced from HESA.

I have an account. Will look. There are big differences on that measure!

The percentage point difference between the proportion of firsts and 2:1s attained by white students and students from black backgrounds. A negative score indicates that black students are achieving fewer top-class grades. Where no data is shown, this is because the cohort of black students at a given institution is too small for a reliable calculation to be made.

HereWeAreAtTheEdgeOfTheWorld My daughter is also going into JoBo! She's looking forward to it.

Liverpool , if you look at boys data?

Interesting to see the names on there, although it is an aggregate of all sorts of measures. Are the Liverpool / Cardiff / Manchester / Southampton student bodies particularly affluent compared to the cities, I wonder, as Durham's has been described?

Well in terms of Durham Uni bingo this thread has achieved a full house even faster then usual.

In terms of boys data it was quite interesting that in many ways Durham wasn’t the worst offender by any means. It’s private school figures are very high but by the other measurements it is actually doing better then many MN favourites - Bath, Exeter, Oxbridge, Bristol, LSE, Imperial and so on.

What needs unpicking really is why are state school pupils reluctant to apply to Durham. I’ve shared my experience before so apologies for mentioning again but neither my husband or I went to Uni, our children attended grammar schools (our county is 100% selective and is opt out for the 11+). When I mentioned to people that dd was applying to Durham a very large number of friends (all university educated and the majority privately educated) asked me - well meaningly - if this was a good idea, would dd fit in, would our politics be too far away from the majority view at Durham and so on. It made us doubt her choice. Anyway she applied and she’s going. I do feel though that this kind of questioning of our choices puts many off from applying and if state / 1st generation students aren’t even applying they can’t be offered places and so the situation perpetuates.

We had long chats with dd's Dept (Sociology - yes I get they may be an outlier! ) about this and they are very open that they neeed to do better and are actively working to change. DD’s college (Chads) offers a number of generous bursaries to students from under represented backgrounds and Inknow their last JCR president was very active in campaigning for inclusion and fairer rents etc. No situation is clear cut and the cause needs unpicking.

Refarding the comments saying it’s distasteful rich students attending university in areas of deprevation I kinda get what you mean but again things aren’t that clear cut. Should we close all the universities in the parts of the north which have been affected by the closure of mines / manufacturing - only have them in the wealthy south? Maybe only let poor students go there? Of course these are silly suggestions but that is the logical conclusion if we extrapolate this way of thinking. My family are from a Yorkshire mining town decimated by the closure of the pits. Very many of my relatives worked down the pits. My parents moved south for work. The closure of the pits led to the closure of shops and other services and communities were hit badly. A way of looking at it is that the Uni brings employment both directly (working for uni and colleges) and indirectly - students spending money in shops / restaurants. It also brings tourists and their $$$ so again it’s not a clear cut thing.

One things for certain though and that’s that Durham isn’t for everyone - and that’s fine - people are different. I don’t get the need that some posters have to be just really offensive claiming that the open day is full of London private school mums and so on - a) that’s not true and b) it only works to put off under represented groups from even visiting.

Why is letting poor students attend Durham a ‘silly suggestion’?

I’m sorry but the Durham open day was full of posh mums. It’s true. Quite different to other open days.

I said only letting poor students.

it’s a silly suggestion because it’s segregation and ultimately creating ghettos - equality is about inckusion and equality of opportunities not keeping the poor people away from the rich. But you know this and your just being contrary and spoiling for an argument 😀

It’s only segregation and a ‘silly idea’ when it works against you @KittyMcKitty ? Ok.

What needs unpicking really is why are state school pupils reluctant to apply to Durham.

I can only answer this in relation to my DD, but it's partly distance, partly hearing about a family member's bad experience, partly that only half of the student body comes from non-selective state schools, partly the small size and the lack of diversity. All just one person's impressions though.

Some on the thread made the decision after visiting and not particularly liking it. I don't think people are just dismissing it out of hand without proper consideration - as I said my DD was quite put off and I didn't want her to miss out on a good course without gathering some more info first.

Ok but I’m intrigued how you managed to gain this level of data from the other people there as it would be unusual to discuss income and financial background with others attending an open day. But anyway if that’s your experience I’m sure you’re right. I found the families there looked much the same as at other RG open days 😊

Well we’ll have to agree to disagree.

That's a very good post @KittyMcKitty . My dd has fit in 'despite' being from a very similar town/background to your dd. She is also 1st gen, scores highest percentile for POLAR and the other deprivation score thing. She also gets a 2.5k bursary and maximum student loan, so very much a 'target' for inclusion.

The students I have met so far are all from very varied backgrounds, in dds houseshare of 5 she is the only 1 to get any financial support, and the rest of the students only get the minimum loan so from more affluent backgrounds. But I suspect that privileged students these days are more aware of the privileges they have enjoyed than previous generations of students. Dd was a bit taken aback at first by the difference in education, living standards etc but says that most students in her friendship group have a similar amount of spending money and can afford to do the same things socially. And while she works part time which many don't have to do, she is seeing this as an advantage rather than a disadvantage.

I also attend uni as a (v) mature student, and there are affluent, privately educated students on my course and tbh, in a seminar or exam or under essay deadlines we all have the same worries and concerns. And I suspect after the 1st year, when dd said that her depth of knowledge wasn't as great as the privately educated students, that the playing field becomes more level as they cover more complex ideas.

I suppose it depends on which RGs you’re talking about @KittyMcKitty If you mean places like Exeter and Bristol you’re probably right. Again those universities are not for us. Nothing to do with academic standards either. You’re not the only person on this board with clever kids 🙂

Ummm I don’t think I said I was?

It was so in face obvious though. I’ve been to half a dozen Russel Group Uni open days recently and the demographic was obviously much posher/private school to us - accents, clothing/trainers, conversations overheard. Haven’t done Bristol or Exeter though.
My DC is at a northern state grammar. They send lots to Newcastle but hardly any to Durham. A handful went to Durham open day.
We’ve discussed and my DC will apply as she liked course, year abroad programme and it’s an easy to get to location for us. But yes reservations about demographics.