A-level choices to keep options open

[stubiff]

My DS (literally) has no idea want he’d like to do for A-levels or beyond. Only given is not English Language.
He doesn’t really have a favourite subject(s) or passion.
He is probably around the GCSE 7 (poss some 8’s) mark, ability-wise, fairly consistent across the subjects.

So, he’ll probably be looking at choices to keep his future options as open as possible.

Please could you recommend some combos using the following groups:

1. Maths, Physics, Chemistry, Psychology, Computer Science
2. Business Studies, Economics, English Lit, History, Politics, Religious Studies, Spanish, Classics
3. Drama, Design & Technology, Physical Education

Some rules:
Please could you provide some rationale for the combo(s), especially if you break the rules (which I’m sure some will!).
Min 1, max 2 from group 1.
Min 1, max 2 from group 2.
Min 0, max 1 from group 3.
If you suggest a Maths combo, please could you also suggest a non-Maths one.
English Lang will not be chosen.
Biology, Geography and any subject not mentioned will not be chosen, either because it is not available or wasn’t chosen at GCSE.

Appreciate it is a wide/varied ask, but thank you very much, in anticipation.

@JesusWeptLady this is the kind of thing Oxbridge adores

A friend of mine did economics on a course you didn't need A level maths for, but found he was at a massive disadvantage compared to students who had done it, because the maths on the programme was quite complex. I could believe this because I did A level economics back in the day and it was mainly an essay subject. Apparently the maths needed was considered too complex to cover in the A level econ syllabus, but that meant students without maths struggled later.

Maths, Psychology and Spanish.

The psychology can be seen as a science or social science, it's also a very popular degree for people who don't know what they want to do.

Spanish because he leaves with a life skill as well as an A-level and it might mean he can do a joint honours with Spanish.

Maths, because the absence of it stops him doing a lot of things.

@stubiff please remember that when looking at CS at top universities a lot of applicants will have maths and possibly further maths too. Not all sixth forms offer fm so universities cannot insist applicants have it however, you can find out how many people got onto a course without fm. Ds is doing CS at a top 10 uni. Only 1 person didn't have fm but could well have sat TMUA or MAT in the November of year 13 and provided their scores to prove their maths ability.

Although some unis will state either maths or CS for CS some students on Ds's course only have maths which put them at a disadvantage when doing certain projects. Personally I would say CS over maths if there was a choice because then there is foundational knowledge of the degree. Some CS courses are more maths heavy than others. However a maths A level is always a good one to have.

Also entry grades are the lowest grade they take applicants in on. If they state A star AA then have a look at how many are coming in on those grades. For Ds it was less than 5% on entry grades. It starts with 4 A stars, then 3 A stars then 2 A stars and an A before hitting the entry grade. You can find these sorts of things out from googling, and What Do They Know website. When courses are oversubscribed then the uni can cherry pick. Your son wants to be a competitive applicant, finding out this sort of information now makes them more informed.

Ds did maths, fm, physics and CS at A level and the amount of maths he covered for CS is nowhere near what he needed for uni. It isn't that it can't be learned whilst at uni it just adds more work to their workload and can make them feel a bit lost in lectures.

Again looking ahead means they understand that GCSE grades can have an impact on A levels and uni applications.

You've had some great advice here OP. I'm going to add my thoughts!

Firstly, of course as others say (and you accept) narrowing down choices to three A levels obviously eliminates some options. That's fine tho.

If he wants to keep as many options as possible, then he could look at possible uni courses. It's interesting what is and is not required. Most science courses are easier too access, let's say, with two sciences. Psychology and things like env science and geography (I know these are not options here) all count.

Psych is not needed for a psych course, nor is economics for economics. Econ needs maths and it's useful for comp sci too. Is FM a possibility? It's needed really for a maths degree and would help with econ and comp sci too.

Is any of that of interest? if he shudders at the idea of maths, FM and physics, well that's giving him a steer.

On the face of what you say, my initial suggestion is maths, physics or chemistry (see @poetryandwine's excellent post) and then history, Eng lit or Spanish. That third subject feels a bit of an outlier, but if he finds he enjoys it, uni study of it is very much a possibility. He could also study engineering, physics (or chem) and related degrees. Physics with no maths is very much not a good idea.

Having read what @Piggywaspushed says, I must say I am inclined to also suggest History, Eng lit and Spanish (well I would). Or maybe RE not Eng if he is not a great reader. What is his view? Does he prefer my first suggestion or my second one?

Thanks for the further replies and advice, it's much appreciated.

Talking to him - that's tricky (as you might expect!). To be fair he's talked a bit recently about subjects, but not really what he'd want to do with them afterwards. I'm minded to leave it 'til the start of Feb to have meaningful conversations, as mocks will be done and the parents evening is on Jan 31st (and it will come to a head then anyway).
Then, he may not be able to decide what he wants to do post A-levels, but he'll have a better/firmer idea of his best/better subjects (and grades), and that would steer the conversation.

If he was pushed to decide today, I think he'd choose History, Spanish and ANOther.
Mainly because of the teachers and that they are probably his best subjects and the ones he enjoys.

I think FM will be off the cards.
Whether he'd want to throw Maths into the combo above, I'm not sure. With all the caveats that have previously been mentioned.

Although there may have been confusion, we're not (almost certainly) talking top 10 Unis/Astars at A-level. 1/2/3 rungs down, the reqs will be different.

He has said he thinks (for him/his type) he is capable of getting better grades at non-STEM. He said there are plenty of what you might call nerdy/brainbox ones in Maths (top set), and some of the time he doesn't keep up. In Spanish and History I don't think he thinks this (as much anyway).

He'd also like to spend some time in Spain in the future.

I think ultimately it will come down to whether to throw Maths into the combo. And work around it from there.

@MMAMPWGHAP
Re Chem - school guff says "Students have felt that Chemistry stretched them intellectually more than in most subjects..... Many students felt it was their hardest A Level", so what you say correlates.

Don't make him (or let himself/ his peers/MN make him) so maths because others state baldly that it is 'useful', 'opens doors ' etc. Having A levels opens doors. Maths is a utility subject at GCSE. Beyond that irony opens doors if those are doors he wants open and he does well.

There is still a pervasive idea that maths is the most important A Level , and (according to my students yesterday) boys ought to do it. English also used to fall victim to the utility argument but that has vanished .

For completeness, rough summary of the combos:

Maths, Phy/Chem, Hist/Span.
Maths, Phy/Chem, Other essay.
Maths, Other science, Essay.
Maths, Econ, Hist/Span.

Span, Hist/Psych, Econ
Span, Hist, ANOther.

I'm going to predict Span, History and Psych/CS!

It's also probably worth trying to establish the difference between subjects at GCSE and A level. DS got an 8 in History but found the jump to A level really difficult as A level History is so different (as much about analysis of historians as anything else). He did well in the end but the first year was a shock and a bit of a struggle and with hindsight he wishes he hadn't chosen it.

DS1 was '8 on a good day' in maths. As it was he fell just short and got a very high 7. Really struggled at A level Maths. The jump is huge. We ended up getting him a tutor and he sweated blood and tears to come out with a B. Glad his other two subjects were 'easier' (one was Business) and he got the AAB he needed for uni but it was a close call.
DS2 did Chemistry with a 9. Has just got a A, five marks short of an A* where 87% was needed! Also a v difficult A level and quite a lot of maths.
Keep options open yes, but there's also an element of choosing strategically and what he thinks he'll get the best grades in.

@Piggywaspushed
Yes, won't be making him do anything (unless the combo is totally unsuitable!). Will only be advising, and understand your viewpoint on Maths.

@TwigTheWonderKid
Point taken. There is full page blurb for each subject in the A-level booklet, so it will be convincing him to read the relevant pages!

@cptartapp
Agreed, it's tricky balancing the 'what do I enjoy', 'what am I best at' and 'what do I need for the future'. Especially when you don't know the latter!

I (probably) think whether DS/anyone goes to the uni 40th on any list or 45th or 50th (even) doesn't really matter in the end, as long as you can get in at that/your natural level.

Not everyone is going to get AAA or ABB. Find your level and work from there.

It’s interesting that the student st Cambridge reading English Lit did all three subjects listed by Trinity as I posted earlier. Of course they like these subjects! Essentially, they promote them!

@stubiff My DD did MFL and History. Plus Politics. I would be careful at the strong pull of maths and sciences right now. My DD felt exactly the same as your DS and back in the day she did get top grades at gcse. It’s important to reflect on how you feel. She’s never needed to code and her maths has been good enough to work out complex matrimonial finances as a family barrister. There’s always a push to stem snd economics but if you are not comfortable with maths, stem puts you on the back foot. Play to your strengths. There’s plenty of careers for switched on young people who have not studied stem.

Everyone (including me) is saying maths because of your original groupings and rules, and attempting to keep his future options as open as possible. But based on this:
If he was pushed to decide today, I think he'd choose History, Spanish and ANOther.
Mainly because of the teachers and that they are probably his best subjects and the ones he enjoys.
I'm going to change my vote to History, Spanish, and either Psychology or Politics. I actually started maths A Level myself due to arguments about 'usefulness', hated it and dropped down to an AS-level in the days when you could still do that. Students do best in the subjects they enjoy, and he'll get a sense of what he wants to do with them next while he's doing the A levels.

Whilst, yes, Maths is a good choice for A level for future options, it's not a good choice for someone who isn't VERY strong at GCSE. I'd say a grade 8 is needed. Whilst schools/colleges will probably let them do it with a grade 7, they're almost certain to struggle and may well end up with a low/average grade at A level.

Noblegiraffe (our resident and highly respected Maths expert) has a chart showing the correlation between GCSE and A level grades for Maths, I can't find it to provide a link, but it was basically showing (from vague memory) that people with 9 at GCSE were likely to get the A*/A grades at A level, those with an 8, were likely to get B/C and those with a 7 were likely to get C/D or below. It was a very stark view of how even "good" grades at GCSE don't translate into good grades at A level. That's because of the difficulty of A level and the size of the step up between GCSE and A level. To get an A at A level (required by most Unis for Maths related degrees), the OPs child really needs to be looking at a minimum of grade 8 at GCSE and be willing/able to put a lot of time and effort into the A level work.

I'd also be wary of what individual subject teachers say. They have no idea of your child's capability in their subject compared to the others and in my experience teachers always want to "sell" their subject to prospective students.

Another saying A level maths is hard. The step up from GCSE is massive. My Ds got a 9 at GCSE, and had never struggled at all. A level was a different matter entirely.
I think you need to love maths to do it.
It would surely be better to do something that you enjoy, and have a chance at a decent grade rather than doing something that might be 'useful' that you don't enjoy and have a very high chance of getting a low grade.

@DrMalinki
I did that on purpose to initially try to get a debate purely about the subjects.
If I'd opened with "What's best to combo with Spanish and History", we'd poss be talking about other things.

There's also a train of thought that there's no point taking one science subject, or without maths (not sure how true that is but uni's did like that combination IME) and that many of the higher grades in languages are taken by the native speakers.
Have a look at potential degree subjects at potential unis and work backwards. To some extent, you have to play the game.

@stubiff fair enough. Actually, if he doesn't want to do economics at uni, it's not a bad choice with Spanish and History for the A Level - looks academic, useful real-world information, and in my A Level class the students who did best in it were the ones doing MFL and History because we were good at language and writing essays.

@cptartapp
Yes, quite a few say 2 sciences preferred, and there is also the natural combo of Maths and Phys/Chem/Biol.
Putting Maths in as the only science may be a bit counter-intuitive, unless it's more finance related.

Re Native speakers - I think there was something about that being a bit of a myth. Will try to find it.

@stubiff No it’s not. Maths could then be used for management degrees and is always respected. Useful stepping stone and skills for lots of jobs where you don’t need to be a maths graduate. However, if he looks like a grade 7 gcse, I’d avoid it. If he did Spanish and History, there no “wrong” third choice. So he should do what he’s best at and might enjoy. History and Spanish are two strong A levels.

@TizerorFizz Sorry, yes, should have said non-engineering/similar, or where 2 sciences is required.

And agree with - If he did Spanish and History, there is no “wrong” third choice.