A levels, gaming system/softer subjects?

[Peverellshire]

It seems like RG universities etc care mainly about your ‘score’ not subjects?

Looking at other DC, say if you want to do English Lit at Newcastle, Exeter, Durham, etc, 3 A stars will trump a lot, no matter what subject? As long as A or A star in English? The subject you want to study.

Maths at Durham (?: A star Maths, Further Maths A star Classical Civilisation, A star, media studies, A star (?)

Does that trump: A Maths, A Physics, C Chemistry? For example.

Do we all make it too hard at Uni entry level?

Some subjects overlap too much so they won’t count both (eg biology/human biology, various art subjects). If you look at the university website they normally say.

I see some people take more A levels (sometimes 5). How much to universities consider ‘extra’ ones beyond the initial 3? Doing so would seem unfair to many students as many schools do not offer this?

@IWillNoLie some of my students have done 4 A levels plus an EPQ. From my conversations with them, their EPQs have not featured in their offers, although 2 students were asked questions about them in their Cambridge interviews. Those 2's offers were predominantly for 4 subjects as they included FM and were applying for Engineering courses. For those students whose school does not teach FM, they will get offers for 3 subjects. I think context is important here.

I've had students who start with 4 A-levels and drop one after uni offers (which is fine if the student checks first with the uni). That seems to me a bit "gaming the system."

It's normally hard to take multiple A-levels simply because of boring old school timetabling blocks. When I did silly numbers as a teen it was because I did a couple of them via extra-curricular routes, but that's (even more) uncommon nowadays.

Absolutely agree with this. On another forum I’ve noticed a sneering superiority for eg BSc over BA in one subject because the Maths element is “better”. Completely failing to recognise that essay skills are valuable and important in the subject.

Amused at idea that an A star for media is a dead cert. Roughly 2% of students who sit it get Astar for media. The 'levelling down' of this year after CAG 'inflation' Pretty much showed that Ofqual are determined to keep it there. The media subjects (including film) are definitely not subjects I'd choose for a nailed on A star. Yes, if you were very able, and a writer, you would find your self at the top of that cohort, but if everyone played that game....

It's all in the FFT data linked above (it was me that is the 'somebody' who posted it elsewhere)

Also, Class Civ results way down this year. Whole thread on that! Definitely not a 'nailed on A star! It's a predominantly selective school subject so skews upwards in data but that doesn't make it 'soft'. (It's statistically 'easier' to get a top grade in Eng Lit than some other subjects you name as 'softer')

We do need to stop with this soft/hard nonsense. It's ridiculous and confuddling. Soft and hard data , for example, mean entirely different thing. What your OP suggests is arts and hums are easy and sciences are hard.

It depends what degree my son applied for medicine so did A level subjects related to his degree this year he obtained Psychology A star, Maths A, Biology A and Chemistry B. He needed 3 A’s to get his place. If he had done random soft A levels or ones he would have found easy (bilingual) I would worry he was not prepared enough for a medical degree. He is not going to a RG university as he chose the medical degree course that suits his personality best as his first choice. RG are all self selected and meaningless imo you need to look at individual degrees and how they are structured and respected from their disciplines perspective not just that it’s a RG Uni as it’s meaningless (IMO).

I also know of plenty of native speakers who have bombed MFL A levels. They are sloppy, often. We had one lad who couldn't be bothered with the capital letters in German and used whatever grammar he felt like. He also didn't read the book properly or learn the specialised film vocabulary. He was a very able boy, but just smug. He got a C in German A level which he was doing precisely to game the system.

My son is not a native speaker his first language is English he was the best in his class full of native speakers when we lived abroad for Grammar in the foreign language. He obtained nearly top marks in the GCSE. Maybe he would have bombed it we don’t know however, the subjects he chose were more relevant to a medical degree so he took them instead.

I teach psychology which is often seen as a 'soft' subject and I found it really easy but many people struggle with it so definitely not a banker for high grades. Science students sometimes find the essays and lack of definite 'right' answer. Arts/Humanities students can struggle with the maths and science side.

I imagine a fluent French speaker who enjoys Eng lit would benefit from doing French A level, but less likely to be enjoyed by someone doing maths and physics.

DD’s Oxbridge offer clearly stated ‘excluding Business Studies’ as an A level as it wasn’t accepted.. DD wasn’t taking the subject so think it is just a standard phrase they used in all offers.

My son got four A stars at A Level in science subjects and further maths and got an A star in his EPQ; he went to Oxbridge.

He still gets cold sweats when he remembers how hard he found History and English GCSE. Those essay subjects to him are like Maths feels to some kids. He got 9s in the end but spent so so long revising for those exams as he simply didn’t have the vocabulary or natural skill to interpret texts.

That’s why I don’t think it’s that simple to categorise subjects.

For Ivy, extra curricular for last 2 years but the level required needs to be in place years before ie. County running team, rowing squad, tennis rankings, swimming regional and British sport teams. Visits for care homes etc for medical fields needs to be done for years. Music at grade 8 etc, choir years of singing and performances. Yes, the Ivy universities looks at last 2 years but DC needs to have committed years to their passion to get to that level.

Taking all your points on board.

Is it true to say:

1. There are no ‘easy’ subjects (?) beyond possibly a disguised language fluency (where effectively a native speaker takes & is accredited for an exam designed for a non native speaker).
2. For the most part, beyond Medicine & similar, an A star is an A star & subjects generally irrelevant? Beyond ofc the obligatory Maths if you want to study Maths etc & similar.
3. As Universities regard all subjects as pretty much equal, with caveats around 2, what’s ‘soft’ or otherwise depends on your own strengths & weaknesses.

Interesting, which ofc plays to having committed & well resourced parents & disproportionally advantages that group (?) Guess helps if you have the bandwidth to additionally knock it out of park in last few years.

That determination to crack what’s difficult with grit & resilience will set him apart, as well as natural smarts. Congrats to him, he sounds great.

I think you need to read oxford/cambridge other RG unis detailed a level requirements. Eg the below from Cambridge

Less helpful A levels and IB subjects
Undergraduate courses at Cambridge are more academic than vocational. Vocational courses are more practical and hands on, while academic courses are more traditional and focus on theory.
If you want to study at Cambridge it’s less useful to choose:
▪ Vocational A levels and IB subjects related to a specific profession or career, such as Business, Photography, Performing Arts and Media Studies.
▪ A level Critical Thinking and Key Skills. We don’t count these subjects as an A level, but you could take it as your fourth subject.

DD missed A star in her MFL A Level by 1% - needed 87%! Makes me wonder if there are people gaming it, she met some uni offer holders that clearly were and it really miffed her off. (She has no family links etc).

However, as per PP I'd still think you'd need to do some work to get an A star (read the book/watch film and be able to write your opinions on them which is a skill in itself) so is not a given even if fluent?

Thanks for this, so, very broadly & generally it could disadvantage a DC to study, say, English at Durham or Newcastle or Edinburgh, top Unis, IF they had these sort of results they could be rejected & ‘points’ wouldn’t count:

Eng Lit, A star, Biology A star, Business A star & Photography A star (?)

Obvs it would be good to contact Uni choices in advance & check directly.

This page on the Cambridge University website outlines which subjects they recommend for different degree courses: https://www.undergraduate.study.cam.ac.uk/apply/before/choosing-high-school-subjects

Less helpful A levels and IB subjects

Undergraduate courses at Cambridge are more academic than vocational. Vocational courses are more practical and hands on, while academic courses are more traditional and focus on theory.

If you want to study at Cambridge it’s less useful to choose:

• Vocational A levels and IB subjects related to a specific profession or career, such as Business, Photography, Performing Arts and Media Studies.
• A level Critical Thinking and Key Skills. We don’t count these subjects as an A level, but you could take it as your fourth subject.

It’s not a ‘predominately selective school’ subject.
The 2019 Class Civ A level cohort ( 2946) was made up of:
33% Independent
16% State maintained selective
51% State maintained non selective.
The 2023 cohort had risen to 3984

There are a small subset who def are, but within their rights to do so. Just, I had possibly naively thought, it would be super dull for an effectively fluent DC to do an A level in ‘their’ language. The top sets at school often have a few with a parent with it as mother tongue.

I mean, I don't think there are easier subjects, no.But MN and a small number of universities and employers would not agree. It's based on no knowledge whatsoever of content or demands, of course. It bristles a bit that they call Media vocational ( it isn't. They should differentiate, I would argue, between the actual theory heavy A level and the BTec)and, also, Business, which also has several versions- a dull bit easyish vocational A one and a 'proper' A level. They can't come out and say they don't like coursework because that would preclude more traditional subjects. But, imo, media is certainly no easier than the more widely 'accepted ' politics. I'd say,if anything, more demanding. I've never quite known where they stand on art and music, but I guess they have more spproval because more strongly connected to the elite, and to ideas of talent.

I have taught 5 different A level subjects. The big difference to me, looking across the whole school is that the best results come from students doing the subjects they are best at not the ones they feel they ought to do, they genuinely like, they work hard at ....and are taught by committed, enthusiastic teachers who are either specialist or who have the commitment and enthusiasm for lifelong learning and training.

We have had a student enter Cambridge recently with A level film, and one with business ( the latter was a rather special case). Neither were gaming anything, though.In fact, the film student was always most aware of the paucity of A stars in film. They were asked lots about it at interview by a very interested don where they happily discussed silent cinema , Ken Loach, and the French New Wave.

It’s heartwarming to see the passionate are rewarded, thank you for sharing above, illuminating.

Lots of native speakers fail to get an A* in A Level MFL. There is a lot more to the course than just being able to speak the language well. Many fluent speakers have learned the spoken language orally but can't write well, have sloppy grammar and have not learned to include showy grammar that gets them high marks. They also need to be really good on the topic content, be able to write literature/film essays and do an independent research project and talk about it intelligently.

Incidentally, there is no need to 'disguise' being a native speaker. Native speakers are fully entitled to take MFL A Levels. Though there is concern that the number of native speakere is skewing results and making it too hard for non-native speakers to compete.