A levels 2023 - Results day and beyond

[HereWeGo2023]

Hi all. I thought I’d make a new thread as the countdown one is filling up.
Results day is here and I’m sure we will all value each others support, today and for the next stage of their journeys.

The Jan start is certainly easiest for pupils and admissions tutors @Dixiechickonhols Also for schools. For all stakeholders except universities, in fact. And for them it presents many obstacles

I agree that there is a large elenent of ‘this is the way it’s always been done’ behind not only the marking timetable but the whole system of pre-qualification offers, @Postapocalypticcowgirl

I’m not sure I like the idea of a January start. A mid September start is super quick, and I would be happy with mid-October and a shorter first semester, but January seems very far away and I feel like a lot of 18 year olds would feel a bit lost with nothing to do for 4 months, having already had at least 2 months off after exams. It wouldn’t be fair on employers to have them in jobs for a very short term contract, and while some could travel etc there would be a huge difference between those who could afford it and those who simply couldn’t. Even in terms of skills based course etc - who would run them and who would fund them? You couldn’t make them compulsory so a lot would just bum about and waste money for 4 months. I would fear a loss of motivation and momentum too with that long a break.

Thanks very much for that excellent explanation of the Irish admissions system, @AfingeroffudgeisNOTenough I agree it sounds an improvement on the British one.

I like the fact that students apply early and can change their choices for a long time; it’s only offers that are made post admissions. That would allow a better timetable. However I wonder whether interviews are used? They are important in some circumstances here.

Indeed. Academic staff are not just teaching staff. We have research and impact obligations as well. And the so-called “long holidays” over the summer are often the only time to do the deep research involved in new work, writing books etc. (I am currently taking the annual leave I haven’t been able to take for two years just so I can finish a book. I’m not actually on holidays,I’m working but it’s the only way to stave off meetings, overly needy postgrads and general other stuff that gets in the way of thinking).

And even if you ignore academics’ need for a sustained 6 weeks of research time (at the peril of the future of UK HE but anyway) I'm genuinely not sure how a January start would work - after our long winters, we really need a good break in the summer!

What are the practical proposals anyone has seen?

Apols for the thread derail . I hope that those still uncertain about their next few years are starting to gain some clarity - if only to take your time in making such important decisions.

Whilst I've been at work this morning, ds has sent a clearing application for a course at Nottingham Trent that he thinks looks really interesting.
He's applied online and it says the application is under review. Anyone know how long this stage usually takes? He's so desperate for a 'plan'.
He still hasn't heard back from the degree apprenticeship. It's bad that they are making them wait this long because that tiny glimmer of hope is still there.
I'm really proud of how resilient he is being though, it's bloody tough growing up overnight!

Has he spoken to the uni? They will usually advise on time frames. If he has a verbal offer from the uni, then they will honour it, but it can take a little bit of time for all the people to click the right buttons.

I joined the thread in my capacity ad a former RG admissions tutor @FarEast and I did cite the research conflict upthread. I am glad you did so more strongly.

This thread shows just how badly the system of PGs and stated entry requirements has become disconnected from reality. It is wrong to base offers on a fiction. Reform is needed and post qualification offers of some kind are the best bet. Everyone will be inconvenienced, but disproportionate burden should not fall on overworked academics.

He rang to ask some questions about the course but then applied online. I've told him to ring in a bit to ask about it if nothing changes.

@poetryandwine I have no idea about interviews as none of DD’s choices required them. The only difference for her was there was one course she was interested in which was a dual BA programme between Ireland and US. It had a more US style application system with entrance essays etc - this is much more similar to UCAS. If you applied you got either a rejection or acceptance for that way back in March/April, but it was still a conditional acceptance (much like UCAS offers) and you still have to wait until CAO offers to see if you get accepted for the course same as anyone else.

I would imagine there are interviews for things like teaching and medicine but I don’t actually know.

It doesn't help with the need for a "summer" break as such, but if the whole academic year was shifted, then would a research period of say October and November not be workable?

I suppose in my head the idea was the bulk of admissions would probably be done by the end of September, but a January start would still allow time for research etc- as well as courses where the admissions process is more involved. I get that no-one wants to shift their whole academic year though.

It does feel like part of the issue is the fact that unis and schools follow the same academic year. I'm not really against shifting the school academic year either though e.g. students move up a year in June, taking their exams at about Easter time?

Normally the process is that he would get a verbal offer on the phone before adding it to UCAS? Did they tell him to add it and they'd review his application?

I'm not sure! I'll have to ask him. He just said he applied online and now his ucas page says application under review.

@UcasSchmucas

I am so sorry to hear that. Do you have confirmation from her insurance uni? How does she feel about the insurance uni?

I forgot to mention that when I was doing Admissions I participated in some national workshops on reforms.

There was always a consensus about post qualification offers and discussion around post qualification applications. But as a PP here has recently sad, sadly the broadest agreement was the recognition that stakeholders are unwilling to change, so it is unlikely to happen.

@Postapocalypticcowgirl We would be out of sync with the international research calendar if our core research months were in the Autumn. Many key conferences are held over the summer, and that is when international collaborations and visits are most readily facilitated

Hi does anyone know how long it takes KPMG to confirm apprenticeship once proof of grades/certificates are sent over? V nervous DD here waiting (& mum!) thank you

That makes sense, I guess. I suppose then it would be schools who would have to change, as we don't have all the competing priorities that universities do.

But equally changing all schools across the whole country when education is devolved (and it would likely mean changing primary schools too) is a huge, probably impossible job.

So perhaps we need to at least look at making the system as is less flawed. I do think something needs to be done about offers/predicted grades vs results accepted though.

The systems as is does feel needlessly stressful though, and because of the way it is, it becomes very time consuming, I think.

Yes, it seems reforming the present system might at least be viable.

Someone upthread proposed attempting to hold schools to account for their PGs. It would take a lot of work but I like the idea

No one would eant 100% accuracy! But we could start by aiming for 50% rather than 20%

Because that is a huge change to the whole
system and rhythm of university calendar, which is a complex and multifaceted thing, of which admissions is only one aspect. Unis have lots of complex processes being managed throughout the year - teaching of course; exams and assessments; curriculum development; research and grant writing; research assessment measures; employability. In summer, staff are taking exam boards, dealing with internal resits; prepping for teaching, conducting research and taking annual leave (which we can only take in teaching breaks) - and if we didn’t have summer breaks (which we presumably wouldn’t if teaching was January start and we continued current pattern of teaching) we’d be teaching then too, so not sure when we would have time to do admissions which generally needs all hands on deck for some of the time (not to mention when would we take annual leave)?

If you change admissions in the way you suggest, you have to change everything about the way a university works. What might make sense is for A’levels to be sat in January with a coursework element at the end, marks returned in Feb/March, with coursework element giving final mark in April and an applications process starting then, with offers finalised by June. But again This interferes with fairly well established rhythms of working in both unis and schools.

So perhaps we need to at least look at making the system as is less flawed. I do think something needs to be done about offers/predicted grades vs results accepted though.

Maybe having AS level exams that go on the UCAS form and count towards the full grade might be an answer to the difficulties of predicting grades. Much less wriggle room for schools, and universities will be able to see if someone is predicted an A star having achieved a C in the first half of the qualification. Predicted grades could even be standardised (or partly standardised) according to AS grades and scores.

What I find annoying is that universities inflate their entry requirements to look more desirable, or to make it more likely that they will be firmed, when DC don't actually need those grades to succeed on the course, and might well be admitted with lower ones anyway. The applicant is pretty much in the dark about whether it's worth applying / firming / insuring one of these courses.

Hi @isthatmyage, I have no direct experience of KPMG school leaver apprentice entry but have had DC in similar situations in previous years. I assume KPMG HR have asked for electronic copy of results print out given by college or school?

Assuming DD has met the grade requirements, confirmation should be pretty quick if your DD had applied for an apprenticeship not linked to a uni eg L7 ACA or a L4.

If the apprenticeship is linked to a uni provider (eg often the case with Digital & Tech Solutions L6), then the uni may possibly also need to confirm behind the scenes via KPMG. If your DD has concerns then a polite email to her HR contact at KPMG would be perfectly fine, I'd have thought. Hope that helps.

It's a much bigger job here than Ireland - they have fewer than 30 HE institutions.

Moving the academic year for unis to be Jan-Dec might be the solution, but the problem is that you then have a term's funding gap the year it's implemented, so it would probably require an injection from government. With hindsight, maybe we should just have postponed summer term 2020 to the autumn, and then gone to a new academic year from then on (also giving more time to avoid the 2020 results fiasco). However there's probably rather more admin than would have been possible, and knock-on effects to consider (eg teacher training starting January fits less well, the annual cycle for junior doctors would need to change, etc).

@SlightlyJaded I'm finding your DD's story very upsetting and I don't even know you! Of course you'd have been very proud of her if she'd got her expected grades but I expect you're even more proud of the resilience and character that she has shown. These qualities will make her a superb student, and will shine through whatever path her life takes her on. Please keep us updated - I really she gets some good news soon.