new gov policy of restricting student numbers in some degree courses

[justanotherdaduser]

www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-66216005

Wondering how people feel about it?

I am unsure - in one hand, it feels needlessly prescriptive. People should be free to study what interests them without government's guiding hand

But also, not everyone signing up to such courses fully understand the degree outcomes.

Or, why should tax payers fund courses that are not good value for money? But by that logic, over time, we can lose many other valuable courses (IMO!)

Confused!

This is the Sec State's actual statement to parliament, along with the questions and responses that then followed. https://hansard.parliament.uk/Commons/2023-07-17/debates/10053F59-417E-491B-9230-8E43F75B4E03/HigherEducationReform#contribution-592A50FB-C3D8-45D3-AA92-B194039938C2

Key take-aways and highlights from the statement and questions that followed:

• Not evident that the Sec State understands how the loan repayment system actually works
• The Graun lauded by a conservative MP
• DUP cheer-leader in chief; (that one billion clearly well-spent); although they seemed to forget that education is a devolved matter, but did take the opportunity to make another reference to borders in the Irish Sea; this time an educational one
• Sec State confirmed:
• that no babies are to be thrown out with the bathwater;
• that she is a huge supporter of our creative and arts industries;
• that there'd be no blunt tools;
• that, to her credit if carried through, the data definitions for classifying professional job needs review;
• whilst giving shout-outs, some more glowing than others, to Bolton Uni; Anglia Ruskin; Liverpool John Moores; Buckingham Uni; Harper Adams;
• but avoiding a shout-out when offered up for Nottingham Trent;

and in summary passed the, as yet not defined, buck to the Office for Students.

Who in turn have studiously continued to pretend so far that nothing has been said. This is their news page https://www.officeforstudents.org.uk/news-blog-and-events/

Although to be fair to the OfS their chief exec published this Blog back in December.

https://www.officeforstudents.org.uk/news-blog-and-events/blog/quality-where-are-we-now/

and as referenced in the blog the OfS had already started a quality enquiry into Business and Management courses - oddly not a subject mentioned by anyone on the thread to this point - at eight unnamed universities and colleges.

https://www.officeforstudents.org.uk/news-blog-and-events/press-and-media/regulator-opens-investigations-into-quality-of-higher-education-courses/

That enquiry announced in May 2022 was due to start in Autumn of last year. And presumably has started. Within the link it states we expect to publish further details in due course, as our investigations progress. In due course not being subject it would seem to the usual space-time continuum expectations. Although an update might be buried somewhere else on the OfS website.

Thank you for all those links, @boys3!

Buckingham is private I think. It’s also very average by most metrics with 2 year degrees and a limited menu of degrees. Lots of international students and Anthony Seldon was VC. Would anyone notice if it closed? No one would choose Buckingham as a great place to study.

I worked for a company whose CEO had an undergraduate degree in criminology. She then trained to be an accountant.

There as I worked with someone who did a degree in accountancy but decided to work in IT.

Degrees in the UK aren't always linked to a particular job. So I know people with engineering degrees who work in banking, are accountants, are teachers are technologists, etc.

Yep! Anything but engineering!

Accountants can be anyone really. That doesn’t mean all degrees are great or equal.

Indeed. Although the Honourable Member for Buckingham takes a somewhat different view, seeing it as fantastic and a potential exemplar for others. With Gillian matching that with excellent and raising the prospect of revolution! The latter in a relatively narrow sense would be my interpretation.

@boys3 As a local, few locals choose it as a place to study! She clearly believes any old rhetoric from the great and the good. Not much evidence of it being fantastic.

Agreed. Although few people choose it in general! 😀

and we wonder why public policy can go so awry.

Perhaps our parliamentarians were confusing University of Buckingham (private, of 2 yr course fame, not much more than 1500 undergrads, roughly 50% international), with Buckinghamshire New University (public, nearer 15,000 home undergrads, and less than 7% of total undergrads internationals). I presume not given the two year course reference.

in a fairly short statement and question session the word fantastic featured a dozen times supplemented with a further five excellents and five greats. Probably their excitement about their imminent summer recess.

Because they don’t want to be in a position where there are unemployed junior doctors as not enough jobs. If the govt want this to be different then more funding to the nhs for more jobs would be a start.

I’m sure it’s slightly more nuanced than this as not only does there need to be the funding but there needs to be the support and training opportunities and there needs to be more senior doctors available for that to happen as well patients to see, operations to do, etc. and I’m sure it’s a hard balancing act with doctors leaving the nhs in droves.

but I can’t imagine the bma are voting against more med school places just to be difficult, they must have a reason which they believe to be valid.

At 18 or older, people can make their own minds up and follow their dreams, we don't need a Govt that has forced the highest student tuition fee's, in the world, on our children to dictate what they should study.

@HaveYouHeardOfARoadAtlas @Tryingtokeepgoing As I understand it from a medic friend, the bottleneck is training places in hospitals. Without more hospitals, any extra medical students finishing the degree part of their training wouldn't have anywhere to go for the clinical part.

I recently met up with an old friend who lives in the US who would give a hollow laugh at "highest student tuition fees in the world." She pays $64k a year in tuition for her DS, and that's before the compulsory fully-catered on-campus accommodation (total $91k)!

https://commonslibrary.parliament.uk/research-briefings/cbp-9735/

Medics. All a bit grim.

Degrees in the UK aren't always linked to a particular job. So I know people with engineering degrees who work in banking, are accountants, are teachers are technologists, etc.

Exactly, and this is a really important point and feeds into the debate about how do you measure the value of a degree.

Around 80% of graduate jobs don't specify a particular degree subject. Therefore young people should be choosing a subject the enjoy and are good at and studying it at a university that excels in careers and employability and has excellent links with employers and graduate recruiters.

Its just another culture war front being opened up. They couldn't name a single course they would restrict when pressed on this. Sunak has complained that Universities are full of people that do not vote Conservative which says everything

Private Uni, a public one, in state is $10k per year, you re not comparing like with like.

German students pay around 250 euros per term, who has the higher educated workforce and far better productivity?
France 1000 euros.

Australia is v expensive.

but point taken, highest in europe would have been better.

Sunak has complained that Universities are full of people that do not vote Conservative which says everything

Brilliant @anniegun I just spat my coffee over my keyboard at that 😂

Thank you for that. I should revisit Dickens, it's been too long.

Thanks! It's my "low value" English literature degree ...

Who has the higher educated workforce and far better productivity.

The answer to only one, ie the latter, would be Germany (out of a choice of Germany, France and UK).

of course if higher became more appropriately or something along those lines, then I’d likely agree with Germany for both.

( on the point about lower student debt in Wales I think despite paying the same income tax as the UK they get a massive extra gift from presumably msstly English tax payers of £1k or something.

What happened to HNDs and HNCs?

AIUI, they are still around, but generally offered by FE colleges rather than universities.

Hmm.. well the devolved governments get funding from Westminster and are supposed to decide how to spend it, that's how devolution works. The HE landscape in Wales is very different from England, it's one of the poorest regions of the UK and progression to HE is low, so it's something of a priority. Need to get that population educated ready for independence