new gov policy of restricting student numbers in some degree courses

[justanotherdaduser]

www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-66216005

Wondering how people feel about it?

I am unsure - in one hand, it feels needlessly prescriptive. People should be free to study what interests them without government's guiding hand

But also, not everyone signing up to such courses fully understand the degree outcomes.

Or, why should tax payers fund courses that are not good value for money? But by that logic, over time, we can lose many other valuable courses (IMO!)

Confused!

They could still study at degree level, but the future of humanity among the stars would be the primary importance. What's the point of lots of historians etc when humanity makes first contact or we need the military to go to war but instead of building war ships for war in space instead we have poets.

There would still be plenty of courses like that left. Possibly not so many low quality courses lurking under the umbrella of humanities, criminolog, gender studies and media studies could probably do with some rigorous external assessment of the courses.

possibly an American style degree which covers a breadth of subjects would be more useful to equip young people for the work place and also to enrich their lives.

@boys3
Yes. Even a thicko who hasn’t got a degree can read and pay attention to data. Don’t know how I manage it?!

Universities are big business. There is no going back. That doesn’t mean they should do exactly what they want without regard to quality and funding from the government. They are effectively minor fiefdoms awarding degrees with no cross referencing of content or quality.

High contact hours are not always necessary. Students don’t understand independent learning. They need to do that for work and some cannot. Also you can read up on what is taught so there is some buyer beware element.

@PhotoDad They are both. High quality research informs teaching. However that cannot apply to every degree. Is research into art what you need to teach practical art successfully? Most fashion courses do history of fashion snd sustainability, for example. That’s from a research background but students still need to put clothing together after they have designed it.

'What's the point of lots of historians etc when humanity makes first contact or we need the military to go to war but instead of building war ships for war in space instead we have poets.'

The point of historians would be to warn us about our historical mistakes in exploration, colonising, empire, racist ideas about natives etc. Best not to forget about slavery and the holocaust. The point of poets? How do you plan to offer hospitality and entertainment to our new friends form outer space if all you can do is waffle on about whose rocket is bigger?

we need the military to go to war

seriously!?????

perhaps a more enlightened version of humanity might seek to collaborate, discuss ideas, promote engagement, tolerance, understanding, find solutions. Try to make things better. Not think shock and awe violence should be the default response.

Seems like an idea designed to appeal to people who resent university goers anyway.

Indeed. It's probably more symbolic than impactful.

But .... it indicates a philistine attitude to education - worse than Mr Gradgrind, really.

@SideWonder Gradgrind is the perfect comparison. Thank you for that. I should revisit Dickens, it's been too long.

yes, I too am a bit depressed by "we need the military to go to war". But no poets to write the truth about the war, eh?

Apocryphal anecdote...
Elderly woman to young Cambridge academic during the First World War;
"Young man, why aren't you fighting to defend civilisation?"
Reply;
"Madam, I am the civilisation."

are universities teaching institutions which also do research, or vice versa?

@PhotoDad it does not precisely answer your question however is a quite interesting read - part three most relevant. It is also relatively recent as published in December 2021. https://www.kcl.ac.uk/policy-institute/assets/managers-and-academics-in-a-centralising-sector.pdf

Thank you, @boys3, looks interesting and I'll read it later! And @TizerorFizz, I think we generally agree on this; some subjects don't fit the "academic" model, and I do think that making everything into a degree has not been a positive development. Ah well.

I'll admit my ideas need shaping a bit better, but humanity could have all types of civilisations out there, and it's not good if humanity is seen as weak. Yes of course diplomatic relationships first especially when figuring out the different political aspects of the galaxies, then depending on the threats etc we need a large military to backup and be the guiding principles for expansion of humanity across the star's.

I think you've been watching too much tv!

If you want to save the country money by scrapping useless degrees, Oxford PPE and Classics degrees would be an excellent place to start.

Some of their arrogant and incompetent graduates have cost the country billions in the last 10 years.

I think basing future education plans on alien invasion isn’t the best track to go down, although they thought like that before the pandemic.

anyway, epic derailment there

At some point humanity hopefully will gain a foothold in the galaxy, so shaping the future of education here and now, will help in the long term by shaping the industrial complex and society as a whole for the future of humanity.

Well the starship enterprise has cultural poetry and music evenings.

<steps slowly away from thread>

Mmmm Galaxy

😂😂😂

In the past the BMA themselves have voted to restrict the number of places at medical school, to protect their members…

https://www.bmj.com/content/337/bmj.a748#:~:text=Delegates%20at%20the%20annual%20BMA,on%20opening%20new%20medical%20schools.

@randomuserrr Do you honestly think all the grads doing those subjects are politicians? It’s utterly stupid to think that. I think some of the brightest choose those subjects and don’t go anywhere near politics! Many do, however, excel in many fields.

Also historians are great at comparing and contrasting sources of information. They do not all come to the same conclusion. History is never black or white. Right and wrong. (Except Putin maybe?)

I despise the thought that education should always be about outcomes and careers and how much money you can make.

Let's only make worker drones.

Because that's how taxation works. Our taxes subsidise the medical students - rightly so. The taxes of the childless fund the education of those with children. The taxes of the healthy fund the healthcare of the unhealthy.
I was going to say this but @titchy got there first. I'm a bit meh about the whole 'our taxes are paying for the students' thing. After all, people without children still contribute towards schools and education, people who don't drive still contribute towards the upkeep of our roads (yes, I know that's a bit of a sick joke at the moment, but in principle…), working people whose parents have passed away are still contributing to the state pensions of the older generation, etc etc. That's how general taxation works. It's called 'Society'.

I do think that making everything into a degree has not been a positive development.
I certainly agree with this @PhotoDad.For example physiotherapy used to be a 3-year qualification via hospitals resulting in a diploma which combined working on the wards with some academic work. Now it's 3-year degree with more academic work but fewer hours on the job. Has this been an improvement? No physio tutor I know (and I am one) would think it has improved the quality of the students. And in the meantime it has ruled out DCs who haven't achieved, say, BBB in their A levels but who might nevertheless have made excellent physios in due course.

Am I right in thinking that in the US students can transfer between 'schools' (as they call them)? So if you do particularly well one year, you can kind of 'upgrade'? I stand to be corrected by someone who knows more than me about this but if so, is this a potential solution or does it throw up more problems than it solves?

Jesus Christ

I hope I, nor my children etc ever have to live in your ideal world.

How fucking depressing!