Current Oxford/Cambridge students support/chat continued

[Panicmode1]

New thread.....!

@JulesJules the price list for ours is equally harsh. They lost DD'S and several others at first. It would have saved a fortune if I could have used that as an excuse for the grand parents!

Glad the trip wasn't disrupted - but a close call. When we lived in Fort Knox we had a tornado accompanied by that sort of rain - very frightening.

I used to think rain in American films was ridiculously faked with a hosepipe, until I lived in Pennsylvania. It may be faked, but it's realistic.

So DD’s had a day of traversing from one side of C to the other to different NatSci departments for introduction to the course talks. She is getting stressed because she knows the risk of falling behind, and there is a lot of info/logistics/admin to keep on top of. Also stressed because of clashes with her time table of lectures, labs and supervisions, as I understand it supervisions have to fit around lecture and labs, but one of her supervisors could only do the Monday which clashes with the lab , the supervisor now requested her lab to be moved (not sure how possible or easy it is, or whether she will hear back in time at all) now she can’t schedule her other supervisions because she doesn’t know when the lab will be moved to, and what if she doesn’t hear about the change request by Monday (that would not surprise me - I could imagine these things falling into a black hole as it doesn’t impact anyone else) - so everything is in a limbo because of one supervisor’s constraint.

She’s worried that she’ll end up missing out on the other supervisions, and falling behind, even though she is trying her best.

Any other Natsci parents with same experiences? How do your dc resolve time tabling conflicts?

@Teriyakieverything it's tricky in the first year because four different departments are involved. Obviously lectures can't be moved. They should all be in the mornings, Monday to Saturday. Then practicals are usually in the afternoons. For each of the three experimental subjects there is usually more than one session running the same practical (they can't fit them all in the lab at the same time), so it might be possible for her to move to a different practical group. The supervisions are supposed to fit into the remaining gaps, but obviously it depends on the availability of the supervisor.

Considering that she is first year, I think it would be reasonable for her to ask her Director of Studies for advice / support in getting this sorted. She will not be the first NatSci this has happened to.

Advance warning for you that it's very common for first year NatScis to feel a bit overwhelmed by the volume of work. DS had been used to staying on top of all the work for four A-levels, and was expecting to do the same at university. By week 5 of the first term he realised that this wasn't a feasible goal, and learned to prioritise.

(Edited to replace the word 'compromise' in the last sentence with 'prioritise')

@Ironoaks thank you for the advise. Dd was almost in tears and I could understand why she is stressed about these things, as it is out of her control. I think she does feel a little overwhelmed as it’s hit her that lectures start tomorrow, but in reality, they’ve started in September already as she had done a lot of the admin set up and was given work to do. I said to her, don’t keep it all in, that’s the sort of thing that will affect mental health.

So assuming they run multiple Chem labs they should be able to move it from the Monday pm. I said if she doesn’t hear either way by Monday, she should go to lab anyway.

She needs to talk it through with the DoS who should be able to help. So it’s good that you also concur that DoS is the person to go to. I’ve just been on the phone and helped her set up an Outlook f2f meeting with her DoS tomorrow. I mean, it’s even the little things like ‘no don’t send an email asking for a time (and enter into a protracted email conversation or one that goes nowhere…), just send an invite in outlook’ and guiding her how to use schedule assistant to check availability.

@goodbyestranger yes that's only for the first and second year. The third year is stand alone and they organise themselves into the college owned houses.

@Ironoaks gives good advice @Teriyakieverything . The supervisors are PhD students for 1st year NatSci students, so they should be more flexible. I will text DD and ask her about your DD's situation - my DD is no longer supervising as she wants to focus on her PhD - but she is very familiar with the systems. If you are happy to and want to share more specific details by PM, that is fine.

I will also share that some colleges are a nightmare to deal with from the supervisor's perspective. DD's college were great as was one other in terms of room booking and paying her promptly. However, she got as far as a Letter Before Action to one college who owed her £600+. Whilst that might not seem a lot of money to some, it was more than a month's rent to her. They eventually paid up blaming some sort of admin error, but she (rightly) refused to supervise anyone else there last year. It was a good life lesson for her - it's nice that I can still help with some things!

@Teriyakieverything DD has come straight back to me: DoS first. Some departments have little flexibility on groups (Chemistry/Physics) whereas others can switch lab groups. She says that the DoS should be able to regroup to swap to a different supervision group or slot. She also added that someone with such restrictive time slots should perhaps not be supervising. I miss her dry wit!

She also added that someone with such restrictive time slots should perhaps not be supervising.
I did wonder about the availability on only one day a week, although I guess they could be doing their postgrad part-time or have restrictive childcare arrangements or something.

@Teriyakieverything how difficult for your DD. I hope her DoS helps out and this all gets sorted. I've also heard that this isn't all that uncommon for NatSci students and if she can get through this additional stress, she's doing very well indeed.

I'm just catching up on this thread again but thanks for the thoughts about DS1 and DS2 and TC's at law firms. @Whenwillglorioussummercome I think the GDL tutors have a career advice department and both will be in touch with them to see if there's anything further they can do in this next round of applications. Someone who's doesn't post on this thread PMed me to say that if DS1 and DS2 are "white males", they might have an even tougher time getting a TC as firms are actively seeking to recruit a more diverse lots of trainees? ?? Does anyone know if that's really the case? I presume that the best candidates, no matter their demographic, will get offers and it'll all be very fair?

@goodbyestranger DS1 and DS2 have applied to a mix of tiers from Magic Circle to Silver circle and below - but all London based which is where they want to be. It wasn't even a higher tier firm that rejected DS2 after the Vac Scheme, at the last hurdle. That's good advice about getting more commercial awareness and applying for banking internships, although what with the law course and more Vac Scheme and TC applications to do, they're very busy these days.

DS2 does seem to have a very good CV already, with 2 law related internships (one was paid), the Vac Scheme, a more 'commercial-related' mini internship, loads of 'positions of responsibility', yet still hasn't secured a TC. Could the fact he missed getting a First by two marks also now put off law firms? Do firms only want the most socially articulate and therefore often female trainees (don't mean to be sexist of course) rather than slightly nerdy but incredibly hard-working males? He gets on really well with the partners in firms but is maybe not so much what the all-female, HR/ graduate recruitment want these days. I think DS2's self-confidence is currently rock bottom and he really misses Oxford life and all it had to offer.

Sorry if I'm derailing this thread which is of course to do with Oxbridge students but I hope it's OK to post about post-Oxbridge DCs. I'm sure settling in as first year's and beyond is still gruelling for so many and I hope everyone is managing OK.

DS2 at O was lucky enough to have a large room each year at his college, with an en suite in his second and third years and a massive room in his third year - like a whole studio really. His tiny, tiny bedroom back at home is about one fifth of the size and his ever-increasing overspill of books now live in towering piles taking up the floor space.

DS1 had tiny rooms every year at C, with only an en suite in the first year and shared bathrooms for his 2nd and 3rd years but that was fine for him. Despite some kind of ballot, he ended up in the 2nd and 3rd years with his 5th choice of room and nowhere near his friends, so not a very fair system but in the end, much preferred those rooms as they were in the older part of the college and much more aesthetically his style.

@beeswain I hope your DS is getting used to his private rooms accommodation with a mix of students and enjoying the start of his 4th year.

@mutterphore All the best and fingers crossed for your DS1&2 with their journeys beyond Oxbridge. It does seem like a tough environment, for whatever reasons which are not easy to understand unfortunately.

Thank you to Natsci parents for all your advice. DD has just had a meeting with the DoS. Basically the supervisor's request to change the Physics lab on Monday to a yet unknown alternative time seems to be creating other issues and potentially other conflicts, and solves nothing, as Physics/Chem labs are on the Monday alternate weeks, it's all very complicated and I think DD was finding it difficult to explain it all and struggled to be assertive to get to the right outcome (she is only 18). DoS was very supportive, and assumed responsibility (such a breath of fresh air from the responsiveness and tone of his emails), he is now fully informed, but the lab change request is out there now with no response yet, so she is still in a limbo with the labs on Monday and how it would impact the rest of the week - which would have been better if it wasn't raised in the first place - it's just created more confusion and conflicts I think.

I say to DD, don't get stressed trying to navigate a broken system by yourself, it shouldn't be like this, she has enough to deal with everything new and a demanding course. It's like it's difficult enough trying to navigate the system, let alone a broken system where a small cog will not fit into the big cogs, then the small cog tries to get the big cogs to fit around it, and breaks it more.

@Teriyakieverything I'm glad the DoS is now aware. Obviously the physics and chemistry departments are not going to be able to rejig their entire lab timetables to accommodate the availability of one supervisor. It's clear to all of us outside the system that the simplest solution is for the college to find your DD an alternative supervisor for that course; hopefully they will also come to that realisation.

mutterphore your poor DS2 :(

My own DS2 is white male and did get a First and while I don't think that was make or break, it did seem to help when he was applying with his First in hand. But I absolutely don't buy into whatever this person who messaged you privately said. That's based on the landscape in the two Magic Circle firms my two DC trained at/ got taken on by. Also my own knowledge of my own Magic Circle firm and its ethos, even though things have moved on a lot - but it was always about merit even in the '80s, not about any old boy network or about box ticking and the ethos at this particular firm - a very good one - seems to have stayed just as it was when I was there all those years ago. People really do talk such rubbish. Also, why message privately rather than say something like that on the open board? Perhaps their own DC was white male and didn't get an offer and that's the reason this parent wants to hang onto? All I can say is that a large wodge of the intake at DS1's firm was white male. Not exclusively but certainly there seems to be ample room for white males with the right intellectual and other attributes.

I completely get that your two are super busy. The next best thing to a banking internship - which I can see could be tricky - would be to familiarise themselves with a bit of financial reading, the FT or whatever. Just read it each day and it will be absorbed osmotically. There do seem to be a crazy number of DC going for these vac schemes and TCs - not convinced they'll love it when they get in, separate issue.

I really do hope their luck turns.

I'm echoing @goodbyestranger 's advice and good wishes @mutterphore . I'm sure something will come along soon.

@Teriyakieverything my DD thinks that your DD's supervisor might well be new to C and not certain of how the supervising works. Last year she was quite assertive about who she would supervise and how it would fit in with her other commitments, but that's because she knew the person in charge well and had been through the system herself so was happy to be more demanding. It's obviously tough for your DD, but I'm sure the DoS will sort things out.

Thanks @goodbyestranger. That's sort of reassuring at least as far as the demographic bit is concerned. Both do read the FT most days and lots of news and economics related articles on the internet. I think they'll just have to keep plugging away at applications whilst doing their law conversion courses and continuing to increase their knowledge base. Some of the successful applicants for TCs do seem to have had a few years behind them already working in city jobs in finance but others, like your DS haven't got tons of experience. I hope those two marks below a First don't haunt DS2 for life. Meanwhile, of course, DS1 hasn't even had his degree exams and dissertation marked yet at all!

@mutterphore I am an Early Careers Manager at an international law firm. We are crying out for males to apply! The number of females applying for law courses via UCAS is twice that of males. We receive significantly more applications from females. We want to balance it out a bit. However, we find that males do not put as much effort into their application forms. Very happy for you to contact me via PM if I can help in any way.

The two marks aren't make or break mutterphore. My DS2 appeared to have an easy ride applying after he graduated but that could simply be because he applied at that point rather than earlier. I tend to think it was more about his financial internships and the fact that his profile therefore looked slightly different, but relevant. By contrast DD1 had no experience at all in finance but a longish history of law stuff although nothing to suggest she was in the least bit interested in finance. But she read Law at Oxford, did vac schemes in the summer of second year along with all of her peers and got an offer that September, before going back for third year. Really, there's no set pattern for who they recruit. In that sense, it's diverse. DS2 had a close friend who went to Durham, had to convert. had no TC to sub him, plugged on determinedly, and is now at a good firm and doing really well. He's very bright and personable fair to say but it took a while. I still think I'd come back to the commercial awareness thing if pushed against a wall. It's good that yours are reading the right stuff.

@Sharpkat many thanks for your post and I'll PM you shortly. That's very good of you and gives me some hope for my sons.

@goodbyestranger thanks for your further input too. I think DS1 and DS2 just need to keep persisting with applications and relevant experience but the stats. are against them and there may just be other better candidates applying. They do both want London based law careers for at least a while at this earlier stage of career-life and are willing and indeed looking forward to long hours of hard work (well at least DS2 thrives on that kind of lifestyle. Not so sure about DS1!). I'll also keep supporting them to continue improving commercial awareness. This is all very helpful.

@Ironoaks@Malbecfan An update, so the fog has lifted with DD's Monday lab and supervision clash. She is now able to firm up all her other supervisions just in time for next week, thanks to the help and intervention of her DoS. She feels so much happier now this issue is settled.

Her Monday physics lab is now confirmed as moved to the Thu (but Chem lab remain on the Monday), and there was no need to change supervisor in the end. So clash issues and uncertainty are now resolved, albeit DD has ended up with a rather complicated timetable with 3 labs one week, 1 lab the next, and alternating Physics supervision times from odd to even weeks....I hope she could keep track of it all and get into some sort of rhythm....and from all this...I learnt that the Cambridge week starts on the Thursday.

Hopefully, she'll start feeling more settled after this. It's been stressful not only for her, but for me as she has to navigate this stuff, I can't do it for her and can only guide her...maybe I'm a bit of a control freak. DD will learn in time how to be more assertive, know her boundaries, know when/how to push back, when/how to escalate issues to the right people and generally know to ask for help rather than stew. I do hope they get some sort of assertiveness training as part of their learning and development at university.

I do hope they get some sort of assertiveness training as part of their learning and development at university.

Not formally, afaik, but perhaps your dd has just done the first session?
Glad the DoS was helpful and she's got things sorted. I guess nowadays they can use their phone calendars, if they can be bothered to spend the time at the outset.

@ErrolTheDragon 😬. On a related front, she is definitely getting better at writing emails, and hopefully she could pick up on the styles, manners and general etiquette from other people. I'm always in awe of the Europeans I deal with at work and their turns of phrases 'We ask that you give this your consideration...', 'We kindly request that...', whereas I just say 'Please could you...'.

@Teriyakieverything I'm glad to hear that she has managed to sort it out with the support of her DoS and now has a workable timetable.

On email etiquette: this summer, DS found that many of the Swiss people emailing him would sign off with "I remain at your disposal" or similar.

My company is headquartered in Paris, I'm quite envious of the French for being able to sign off with 'cordialement'. Sounds much nicer than 'kind regards' etc.

Agreed on the language tips. I was aware that when sorting out DD2’s stay in Belgium a couple of years ago, my antique French was probably in the “your humble servant craves your indulgence” territory!

On the other end of the spectrum, DS1 uses ChatGPT to help him with the wording of letters and emails. It’s clunky and needs a lot of tweaking, but great to get past blank-paper-itis.