not taking further math for computer science

[Ib1234567]

Hi

My nephew just finished GCSE , I was discussing his A level choices . He is not taking A level Further Math As he thinks that he may not do well in it. But when I looked at imperial univ oxford they recommend it for computer science degree.

I read in imperial website 80% of offer was AAA orA*AAA and may include step. Is that means some people get in without further math?

Do people know if there is any chance in oxford and imperial if he gets his 3A* and does well in MAT or STEP and doesn't do FM.

PS : he is eligible to contextual admission .

Does his school make him do FM as one of his A Level options, thereby Maths and FM being 2 of the 3/4(?) A levels? Or is it offered as an extra 4/5th A Level?

Some schools have FM as a 4/5th A level, and do normal A level Maths at quicker pace in lower sixth and then, subject to a good grade in Maths A level, go onto to FM in upper sixth, thus leaving the door open to stay doing normal A level Maths in upper sixth if they didn't make enough progress in the accelerated lower sixth year.

It's what my son's school did - Maths first, then further Maths the subsequent year. They didn't do them "side by side" as two of their A level subject choices.

May be worth checking out how it works with them (or maybe move to a different sixth form/college that do it as an extra). That way if he doesn't progress quickly enough, he's lost nothing, he can still do A level Maths at end of upper sixth, alongside his two other options.

Former Russell Group STEM admissions tutor here.

Few Schools of CS require FM but as you have found, OP, a number of RG Schools of CS recommend it.

When FM is recommended, the majority of the incoming class will have had it and these students will have an advantage. Any material from FM used in the UG curriculum will be reviewed, but very quickly. Students without FM tend to lose confidence.

Your DN can find the % of students with FM in Oxford and Imperial online. I firmly believe in contextual admissions so it is great that he is eligible. But given that most students will have FM, he needs to think about two things:

1. CS admissions is extremely competitive. Not having FM will be a disadvantage at Oxford and Imperial. I can’t predict how it will balance against contextual admissions and other personal factors. But DN definitely needs some other, somewhat less competitive choices. He can have a fabulous career or enter any PhD programme in the country with an appropriate degree from a solid RG CS programme.
2. He needs to think about the consequences of being one of few without FM in a programme where most have it. A good degree is important.

Very best wishes to him

PS. I thought STEP 2 (now the lowest level paper) required content from Y12 FM, but I could definitely be wrong. In any case, even the STEP 2 material covering A Level Maths is significantly more difficult than FM. This can be verified by studying past STEP papers and seeking out questions on A level material.

Old MAT papers are also available online.

Your DN could gain useful information from joining the online forum The Student Room and asking about FM for CS , STEP papers, MAT. I am really not exaggerating when I say that pupils with a high school knowledge of maths — and I include FM in that — often find it difficult to imagine how brutal STEP is.

If everyone had equal access to good preparation, that would be one thing. But sadly they do not. Your DN may be one who does not. OTOH a contextual offer waiving the STEP requirement would be like gold dust

Is he aiming for Oxford or Imperial though? The fact that he doesn't think he'd do well in FM suggests he isn't quite at that level.

For heavens sake

There are other universities out there! Seriously!
Computing is an industry with excellent employability options- he doesn’t need Oxford or Imperial to succeed.
He may even do a degree apprenticeship and end up with a degree from a mid range university.
Please don’t try and push him into someone he feels he can’t academically manage. There are many many good options out there

If his school offers FM he has to take it.

This sounds like good advice. I was a natural sciences Cambridge student (physical sciences) and didn’t do further maths a level (my school didn’t offer it). I got on the course, having not quite achieved the STEP requirements, and ultimately it all turned out fine for me, but many of the students on the physical sciences courses had already done further maths. We had to take maths courses alongside the science ones and the first maths lecture they said “don’t worry if you haven’t done further maths - we’ll cover it over the next three weeks then we can move on”. And that’s what happened. I went from being straight A student, barely getting anything wrong, to totally lost, completely unable to do any of the maths. They just left me behind. I was ok with the sciences but less so in the very mathsy bits of chemistry.

I think I’d have been ok if I’d done it at normal pace at school but I couldn’t keep up. Luckily I ended up taking geology as my main science which needs very little maths :-D

My son didn't do FM and it wasn't strictly required for his Maths degree, but most others had it and DS was definitely at a disadvantage because the lecturers "assumed" FM knowledge, so DS had to do a lot of self study to cover the bits he hadn't done at A level, the Uni didn't so any kind of "bridging" courses.

Thank you for all your advice.

I just find it disheartening that it is that hard to do computer science . No one is pushing anyone. He had imperial as his dream univ and done an outreach course until he found that it doesn't make any different to his situation . London is so competitive that they don't help their local contextual students (like Birmingham and Manchester..etc). He have other options Like Royal Holloway which he loved.

Also his school offers FM as 4th subject but their grades are not that good, he is better doing three and getting better grades to apply than struggling with 4.

So no FM then don't bother with these Univs. Again thank you for all the messages.

Nothing wrong with Royal Holloway, OP! Or Birmingham. The standard CS offer at Manchester is currently three A stars, and I don’t know what kind of contextual offer they make. There are many other good choices.

Loads of the brightest pupils across the UK feel that their happiness depends on admission to Oxford or Cambridge, and although they are qualified they are rejected. They adjust and go on to thrive elsewhere. Your DN may be in a similar situation. He can also thrive elsewhere. Again, best wishes to him

Also his school offers FM as 4th subject but their grades are not that good, he is better doing three and getting better grades to apply than struggling with 4.
The latter may well be best if he is not sufficiently confident in his mathematical ability. However should his concerns be to do with the teaching of FM at his school then this might help.
https://www.imperial.ac.uk/be-inspired/schools-outreach/secondary-schools/mentoring-and-tutoring/further-maths-online-programme/

Ds has an offer for computer science at Imperial. I'd also recommend further maths. The MAT exam is much easier than STEP; basically doing as much maths as possible is useful for the course! In terms of being contextual, I think Imperial may guarantee interviews, and some departments guarantee the minimum offer for contextuals, but I'm not sure about computing. The department gave offers to 10% of those that applied this year, just to give you an idea of the competition. Lots of all A star candidates not making the cut. Ds's offer is for 4 A levels and STEP. But, there seem to be some three A level offers too, usually for 3 A stars.

Friend's son got rejected this year by Imperial he has 4 A star predictions including FM. Its very competitive.

Also his school offers FM as 4th subject but their grades are not that good, he is better doing three and getting better grades to apply than struggling with 4.

Which suggests he isn't Imperial material. Which is fine - few are!

I just find it disheartening that it is that hard to do computer science

It's not though. The vast majority of unis offer computer science degrees. Offers range from 3 x Ds to 4 x A stars. There's somewhere for everyone. Not sure why you'd think otherwise.

I just find it disheartening that it is that hard to do computer science.

It isn't. There are lots of other universities who offer Computer Science, and lots of graduates from "lesser" universities who go on to have great careers as excellent software developers etc.

My eldest did A level Maths, Physics and Com. Sc. at A level and went to Southampton Uni to do computer science, he's now working in the City on a grad scheme. Many on there are from Imperial or Oxbridge but they do recruit from other Uni's too.

@Ib1234567 some computer science degrees are just more maths heavy than others. They want students to succeed and cannot ask for further maths as not all sixth forms offer it but the most competitive applicants usually have it. Ds is doing CS for a degree and he absolutely needs further maths elements. However he achieved 4 A stars so of course he applied to the top ranked universities for CS but no London ones as he didn't want to live in London.

Re contextual offers it is usually a one or at the very most 2 grade drop I believe and not everyone offers it, not all courses offer it and some want more than one criteria box ticked to offer it. I can't work out if you are saying that your nephew's grades won't be that great for maths or the sixth form's grades aren't that great. You might want to read this very helpful post by noblegiraffe who teaches it about grades from GCSE to A level for maths.

https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/secondary/4007205-How-maths-GCSE-result-predicts-A-level-maths-result-important-for-grade-6-7

Both my sons did/do maths and further maths A level. Ds2 is year 12, he has 4 1/2 hours of contact time per subject and has that timetabled for both maths and further maths. They have 2 different teachers who teach the entire A level content for maths in year 12 with further maths in year 13. Ds still has around 4-5 hours of free periods in college despite doing 4 subjects. At the end of year 12 and depending on results, the class moves onto further maths in year 13 and they sit both maths and further maths in year 13. If they have struggled with the pace of the maths classes then they just continue with maths for which they have covered all the content and they just go back over it all. It does depend on what grade they come in on but more importantly doing the homework set and asking for help/looking it up the second they feel they are struggling with any of it, not just maths.

This is about expectations and grades. He has 9 weeks before school starts back. What is he going to do with his time? He could do some maths every day, get confident in it, go back over all the basics to make sure he has those nailed down. He could also look at the content for A level maths and start with that too. There are lots of universities that offer CS and they might say their entry grades are AAA but that is the lowest grade they will take an applicant in on. Lots of applicants will have much higher predicted grades.

Thank you for all the info.

I agree. Imperial and Oxford aren’t everything. I have a dc doing CS at a competitive RG uni which doesn’t even insist on maths A level let alone FM. DC didn’t do maths and was pleased to see that some very good unis don’t require maths.
CS is an extremely broad subject, the syllabus varies a lot between unis and not all the modules are maths heavy.
@Ib1234567 I’d encourage your son to look closely at course descriptions from a range of unis. He might find something that really hits the spot.

@FictionalCharacter we will as I saw from the posts that we need more researching and maybe be open to outside London. It is good to know that some don't even need math.

You really need to look at which Universities are well respected for their CS courses within industry rather than aiming at what you think is a good Uni. It was a while ago but DH never did A level Maths and got into CS at his Uni off the back of a BTec. It's not proved to be an issue for his career either.

Likewise, Some non RG Unis do better in league tables and are better respected by employers than some RG Unis. So don't limit yourself to RG Unis either.

Would love to know which uni that is @Poblano if you don't mind saying? DM me if you don't want to say on here. My DS is keen to do Computer Science but less keen on A-Level Maths, even though he's good at maths, so would be interested to know where doesn't see it as essential for a CS degree.

I think you meant to tag @FictionalCharacter

Oops, sorry! Bleary sunday morning brain. Yep - that was to @FictionalCharacter