York, Durham, Exeter

[GodessOfThunder]

These universities seem feature in a disproportionate amount of discussion on Mumsnet as institutions commenters see as desirable for their DC to attend. Obviously they are well regarded universities, but why do they attract more discussion here than other Russell group universities, especially those in northern and midlands post-industrial cities such as Manchester, Sheffield, Leeds, Liverpool, Nottingham and Birmingham?

A few possible reasons were suggested by DH:

• They enjoy an undue level of perceived prestige due to being in smaller old cities/towns like Oxbridge
• The Mumsnet user base is skewed towards the SE and biased against post-industrial cities. Mumsnetters are less likely to be familiar with them and hold “grim up north” perceptions.
• There is a “showing off” factor in starting threads and commenting that DC has applied for, or attends, these institutions - the same goes for the “Oxbridge support” threads, the like of which you never see for red bricks.

Does anyone agree, or are there other explanatory factors?

These initiative are great. The sad thing is that no matter how much diversity these firms encourage at the entry level, give it a few years and the those that progress fit a very narrow criteria. Cream doesnt so much rise to the top as bias reigns supreme.

To be honest, I think most universities that we are talking about (good RG unis - not Oxbridge) aren’t interested in innovative thinkers at undergrad level. They are interested in bums on seats and making sure enough of those bums are international to being the cash in, and the other bums allow them to advance their diversity goals and all the bums are of a decent standard as they can then issue good degrees and maintain saying they are selective and be attractive to future cohorts.

It reminds me of ‘The History boys’ - the solid and strong more selective RG unis which seem to be popular with many of those on MN are exactly that…solid and reputable and although people like to try and rank them, for most graduate jobs,will be much if a muchness…..well-regarded, but there are plenty of graduates from that calibre of uni each year.

I agree that places like Exeter and Durham do attract some from affluent backgrounds who are fairly conservative and in some ways are attracted to a sort-of continuation of their old school type of life. They are likely solid workers but most wouldn’t want to graft at the level of intensity that Oxbridge needs. Most like their subjects but huge passion is probably not really the norm. They are attracted to a place with a ‘name’ and those unis market themselves on that basis and maintaining the idea that they are hard to get in top is part of that, even though some courses in some of those places aren’t that hard to get into. It’s what people want to believe about where they are going, and feeling they’ve gone somewhere prestigious is important to them and their families.

I don’t mean to knock these unis….but quite simply to say that a good degree from Durham, Exeter, York is probably no more useful really in the end than from Nottingham, Birmingham, Sheffield, Southampton. There are lots of good second tier universities which people would like to say are overall top 5 or top 10, but measures of this which are genuinely meaningful for all the different aspects that different people might think important, are hard to come by. But people don’t like to say they went to a great 2nd tier uni of which they are perhaps 15 or so. They want to be more elite than that.

@WombatChocolate you’ve just demonstrated perfectly how crazy you people are. Nottingham, Birmingham and Southampton have just ranked far more highly in the world rankings published today than Exeter and York.

But people don’t like to say they went to a great 2nd tier uni of which they are perhaps 15 or so. They want to be more elite than that.

I think this is probably right, and the superficially Oxbridge bits and bobs and the Harry Potter charm of Durham perhaps makes people feel a bit more elite than if they were at Birmingham, when there's not really much to choose between the two (in general - obvs some subjects are stronger at some places than others).

Exactly! My point was that that the places people like to consider prestigious often are more style than substance. However, I also take the suggestions of exact ranking of the other unis you mention pretty lightly too….their methodology and attempts to include so many variable make those rankings equally spurious.

I think Exeter, York, Nottingham, Birmingham, Southampton….all much of a muchness and all the agonising about is one 2 places ahead of the other in a league table is actually parents and kids liking to feel they are going somewhere better and about an innate desire for ranking and prestige by families, rather than a reality of the overall rankings reflecting a meaningful difference.

It’s crazy @WombatChocolate.

Never really sure why people bang o about Durham and Harry Potter.

There was so little of it filmed there - basically just a couple of scenes in films 1 or 2 in the Cathedral Cloisters and its Chapter House.

Very much "blink and you'll miss them" scenes too

And if you are studying Medicine, arguably one of the most prestigious degrees, it makes diddly squat difference which medical school you study at.

Exactly, but there is one mumsnetter in particular who very much thinks it does.

To be honest, I think most universities that we are talking about (good RG unis - not Oxbridge) aren’t interested in innovative thinkers at undergrad level.

What's your evidence?

It's certainly not what I & my colleagues think. I want my undergrads to be a lot more innovative than they are currently. But the pressure they are put under (not by us!) to get high marks means they won't experiment or try new stuff. I wish they would ...

We live on the doorstep of Bath Uni and as I heard some prospective parents saying at open day in town they were pushing for their daughter to come here over other places she was considering because they fancied popping to here more than the other places!! I'm sure there May be similar reasons for York, Exeter etc for some!!

I hope not AI has been shown to be racist and as sexist at hell.

The reality is that many students pick a university, especially the 'elite' ones based on the possibility of high future earnings. DS was fairly ruthless in the selection of University (Not Oxbridge) and course - If he is going to be £50k+ in debt, he is going to do his best to secure a job that will earn a good amount. He doesn't want money for fast cars and designer clothing rather financial security is everything to him.

Plus ca change

True

Wow! The statistics of private school/state school intake by university are illuminating: https://thetab.com/uk/2022/02/23/these-are-the-russell-group-universities-with-the-lowest-percentage-of-state-school-students-241718

90% of all entrants to University attended state schools. Yet over a third of the intake at Durham and Exeter attended private schools. Is perceived desirability from mumsnet threads about Exeter & Durham linked to lots of private school mums being on here perchance? Idea of 'excellence' still associated with where those with money go?

As for York, well it's a beautiful compact medieval city with good train connections and a balanced intake, winner!

QMUL has the highest proportion of state school attendees (92%) hence the sniffy attitude about it?

The UK class system is well and truly still in tact.

Very interesting data! Thanks for sharing.

There does seem to be a mutually reinforcing dynamic, whereby a higher % of privately educated students, plus old attractive towns that aren’t very multicultural, are seen as denoting a more “prestigious” university by a certain cohort on MN. This is despite various rankings suggesting they are little differentiated from many other institutions.

It would interesting to see a further breakdown of the state school info - how many are from grammar schools, and how many from comprehensives?

No, 'many' students do NOT pick a university based on the possibility of high future earnings, in fact. A few might, like your DS, but the idea that lots do is not supported by the research. One substantive TES survey showed it as the 8th 'most important reason for wanting to go to university' and no where in the top 10 of 'what are most important to you when choosing a university'.

It's another MN trope that all students want to earn loads of money, but it it isn't actually true IRL. A few do – and good luck to them, nothing de facto wrong in that – but money is far, far less of a motivational tool for the vast majority of that generation than MN would have us believe.

It's another MN trope that all students want to earn loads of money, but it it isn't actually true IRL. A few do – and good luck to them, nothing de facto wrong in that – but money is far, far less of a motivational tool for the vast majority of that generation than MN would have us believe.

I agree, and I don't think that many mumsnetters believe this. It is just a significant minority who themselves work in very lucrative professions who are incredulous that not everyone is as greedy motivated by money as they are.

So….a group of parents are thrilled to bits with their DC unis. They aren’t casting aspersions on other unis, just focusing on their own DC and having their own pov. How nice that they are pleased and satisfied. Some stranger not focussed on whatever school other people fancy is not causing anyone any harm whatsoever.

Unfortunately, that's because a lot of law has traditionally been racist and sexist as hell.
Sadly, we may not notice a difference.

I just wanted the AI to give us data on things like earnings at age 30 in a particular graduate career based on where someone went to university etc. I don't think the AI could really fake that if properly programmed but I suppose it might hallucinate.

Post below is what I was thinking too and it can be the same with private schools - often people like I am are happy with my choice to pay and others can not pay and we can all just go off happy rather than have to show the other camp is wrong.

"Margrethe · Today 13:00
So….a group of parents are thrilled to bits with their DC unis. They aren’t casting aspersions on other unis, just focusing on their own DC and having their own pov. How nice that they are pleased and satisfied. Some stranger not focussed on whatever school other people fancy is not causing anyone any harm whatsoever."

The only reason I get into these threads is I want teenagers to have facts. Eg if their parents and school are saying London Met or Sunderland ex poly are just as good for you as Warwick then that in many cases is an out right lie and I hope the teenager has the sense to check google too. The subtle differences between Warwick and Exeter or Bristol and Durham may not be very important but for the much better and much worse universities there are big consequences of the choice even if you just go by data about where do more people drop out.

As for parents wanting their chidlren to earn a decent living and students wanting a well paid job - those are very wise parents and children and the children will perhaps not be on MN threads in 10 years' time about cost of living if they made wise choices. I make no apology for wanting my child to be able to afford a house, childcare costs, holidays etc.

You are so very naive @Margrethe This us all about the UK class system which is pernicious and most definitely harmful to many people.

Nowhere on this thread is anyone comparing London Met and Warwick.

The value in this thread is that there are a lot of evidence based comments that the supposed higher “quality” or “prestige” of some RG/“Tier 2” universities over others is based largely on style over substance.

This has consequences in unfairly conferring a perception of superior “quality” on grads from some institutions over others. This can lead to unfairness in recruitment: like in the claim upthread that Durham, Exeter and Bristol are (for no good reason) supposedly “preferred” by higher paying graduate employers. Unpicking this stuff on a public forum like MN, in a small way helps level the playing field for more young people.