York, Durham, Exeter

[GodessOfThunder]

These universities seem feature in a disproportionate amount of discussion on Mumsnet as institutions commenters see as desirable for their DC to attend. Obviously they are well regarded universities, but why do they attract more discussion here than other Russell group universities, especially those in northern and midlands post-industrial cities such as Manchester, Sheffield, Leeds, Liverpool, Nottingham and Birmingham?

A few possible reasons were suggested by DH:

• They enjoy an undue level of perceived prestige due to being in smaller old cities/towns like Oxbridge
• The Mumsnet user base is skewed towards the SE and biased against post-industrial cities. Mumsnetters are less likely to be familiar with them and hold “grim up north” perceptions.
• There is a “showing off” factor in starting threads and commenting that DC has applied for, or attends, these institutions - the same goes for the “Oxbridge support” threads, the like of which you never see for red bricks.

Does anyone agree, or are there other explanatory factors?

Dramatic changes are currently underway in investment banking and law at the moment due to AI and the potential of LLMs. Graduates in the coming years will emerge into a very different world.

Advice that may be very sound for those graduating in 2000, or even 2019, may no longer be relevant those seeking graduates roles in the coming years.

‘Diamonds in the rough.’ You are actually talking about real people, usually people from more challenging backgrounds than the average RG student 🙄

I know. Sorry - I could have expressed it better. All I’m saying that in my experience of recruiting conventionally and, crucially, also blind, for grad schemes for several very large organisations, the Oxbridge and RG applicants typically win out over post-1992. That said, every year there will be a post-1992’er who is head and shoulders on where they “should” be given perception/ranking of their institution.

We need some AI programmed to do the task which is pick say the 10 highest paid by age of 35 graduate UK careers let us say in England only and search linkedin profiles of newly hired graduates today and tell us where they went

I guess you find it hard to believe because I've seen you say stuff like this before @Xenia but luckily for us all, some people are not primarily motivated by money.

There's a strong possibility that those vacancies for York are only applicable for international applicants

There was a FOI request I saw recently about clearing vacancies for York in the last 2 years - none for UK students, only international applicants

One of mine is hoping to start at one of these in September.
DC and I both expected them to choose a city university and probably Manchester, Bristol or Liverpool. They visited a few and totally fell in love with campus unis and particularly the one they have chosen.
It was unexpected, mainly because of the white MC perception, but I guess it's just down to feelings at the end of the day.
DC's close friend thought they would be picking between Exeter and Birmingham but she's going to Manchester after visiting them all.

@Xenia you know a lot about Law but what goes for City law firms really doesn't apply to the majority of other paths. For other subjects, your views are generally very far off the mark and could be quite misleading.

The thing about law (I can say as someone who worked as a magic circle lawyer and selected trainees as part of a v small committee for several years, and now works very closely with the bar and with judicial recruitment) is that although both firms and chambers have got a bit more professional in the last 10 years it is still at heart a system where highly intelligent good chaps and chapesses are looking for more highly intelligent good chaps and chapesses. And as much as many of us try to change it, they feel comfortable about hiring people from intellectual backgrounds they recognise.

But the rest of the workforce is much less insular. If you looked at the city 20 years ago many people at the top of the IB tree didn’t even have a degree, and often no post 16 education on the trading floor. They were super bright instinctive Traders who probably had family backgrounds in fruit and veg trading or cabbing. Management consultants came out of accountancy- very ordinary, safe, middle of the road degrees from middle of the road unis were absolutely fine. They still are - look at who is working at PWC and kPmg and cap Gemini.
Other high paying jobs eg in marketing and advertising were entirely about whether you could bring in and keep clients or produce the creative work necessary, background much less important than skills. So Xenias extrapolation of law to everything else doesn’t really stack up in my view.

Sorry peleton, just sent your response which is much pithier than mine, but comes from the same place!

@Delphigirl the system you are part of is pretty disgraceful. Representation is absolutely dire in the judiciary.

@GodessOfThunder We live in Leeds and my DD is at Durham. She wanted a small place she could around easily, she liked the scenery and what she describes as the quaint little town. She doesn't care about nightlife unlike my niece who chose Leeds for the student nightlife buzz. She looked at Manchester which is big and sprawling, we used to live there too. Leeds is much more compact in comparison and it was a possibility, she would have lived in student accommodation for at least the first year as we felt that was important. She looked at Warwick but dismissed that because of second year accommodation and again not wanting a long commute to campus. She wanted to be able to come home easily by train. She is very close to her sister who misses her terribly and as a family we are close. That criteria meant within certain radius of Leeds. That ruled out a lot of unis, she has been to London to see bands in concert but never wanted to study or live there. She is state school educated and a 4 A star student so she really could have chosen anywhere. Of her sixth form 64% are first generation university students and it is an outstanding sixth form. Both Dh and I went to uni.

I’m not part of the recruitment system. I work with people who are making applications and try to increase diversity that way and by encouraging applications from less traditional backgrounds. I agree there is a long way to go but it has improved dramatically in the last 10 years (from an appallingly low base) so we keep pressing on.

I see @Delphigirl It’s an appalling system. They recruit certain groups and ignore others. Representation of working-class people is dire as is people with disabilities.

@AugustaHope I'm dying to know which Uni it was your DC fell for after visiting?

One aspect which is unique to law (and maybe a few City financial jobs) is the relevance of A level grades. Please note everyone, a vast majority of firms in a vast majority of professions care absolutely jack shit about your A level grades once you have a degree – they are looking to recruit graduates, that's it.

Indeed, universities themselves do not give a monkey's either – hardly any of them ask for A level grades on their Masters (or PhD) applications.

but luckily for us all, some people are not primarily motivated by money.

I agree. All graduates want to be decently financially recompensed during their careers, but not everyone is as greedy as some on here. Most graduates don't want to work in law/finance/the city, and I resent the implication that anyone who doesn't aspire to these types of careers has low aspirations.

And how do you look up graduates on Linkedin if you don't know who they are? (I don't have Linkedin, so this may seem like a stupid question to some)

You can sort companies by university

Eg sort by Google and Swansea

The type of young people who want to be recruited into these law firms are bright but not remotely innovative. They are happy to do what they’ve told so they can pick up a fat cheque at the end of the month. They won’t change the world. I think universities are more interested in people who can invent and innovate these days.

@LaDeeDa123 this is a sweeping statement and a little rude about young people going into law.

Not everyone can or wants to innovate. A lot of people we refer to as innovators are just rapacious, anyway. Mark Zuckerberg anyone?

It’s not a sweeping statement and it’s not rude. It’s the truth. Of course not everyone wants to innovate but it’s weird that people place such huge value on this type of work when in reality the movers and shakers are doing other things.

Most graduates don't want to work in law/finance/the city, and I resent the implication that anyone who doesn't aspire to these types of careers has low aspirations.

Xenia reminds me a bit of my mum, whose response when a family member with a first from Cambridge chose teaching was "oh no, what a waste" 🙄

For Mckinsey - Bearing in mind some of these may be postgraduate. You might add weight to your Durham degree by doing a post grad at Oxbridge. But in order of frequency.

Cambridge 280
Oxford 261
LSE 26
Imperial 153
UCL 132
Insead 112
KCL 67
Warwick 65
Bristol 62
Harvard 50
Manchester 46
Durham 41

These are in order of occurrence. A search for Exeter and York yields:
Exeter 20
York 14

None of mine wanted this route. If they had, I personally would expect them to look to selected degrees at Oxbridge, LSE, Imperial, UCL and MORSE at Warwick. In all honesty whilst I would be proud of for them to get an offer to anyone of those, it wouldn't warm my heart. There are any number of UK universities I would expect them to get a good degree from and have a great student experience at, outside of this list. But if you want to compete on an international stage branding matters. At the moment its Oxbridge and argue about the rest.

Interesting report here on the alleged top graduate recruiter GMReport23.pdf (highfliers.co.uk) Not sure who commissioned it but there are some notable names missing including Oxford University , MBB etc.

@SoTedious

Does anyone agree, or are there other explanatory factors?

Ummm, they're actually excellent universities, notwithstanding the snobbery of MN!

Certainly, in my field, all 3 universities would be considered fabulous places to work at, and - again my field - are regularly in the top 5 of various league tables, and the REF.

Very true. I’ll take more scientists who can help solve the climate crisis, doctors and nurses, artists who can reveal something of the human condition through their work, writers who can help us make sense of the world vs more parasitical city finance types.