York, Durham, Exeter

[GodessOfThunder]

These universities seem feature in a disproportionate amount of discussion on Mumsnet as institutions commenters see as desirable for their DC to attend. Obviously they are well regarded universities, but why do they attract more discussion here than other Russell group universities, especially those in northern and midlands post-industrial cities such as Manchester, Sheffield, Leeds, Liverpool, Nottingham and Birmingham?

A few possible reasons were suggested by DH:

• They enjoy an undue level of perceived prestige due to being in smaller old cities/towns like Oxbridge
• The Mumsnet user base is skewed towards the SE and biased against post-industrial cities. Mumsnetters are less likely to be familiar with them and hold “grim up north” perceptions.
• There is a “showing off” factor in starting threads and commenting that DC has applied for, or attends, these institutions - the same goes for the “Oxbridge support” threads, the like of which you never see for red bricks.

Does anyone agree, or are there other explanatory factors?

Oh that's really lovely to read especially as ds has asd and dyspraxia and has the same struggles. I'm so pleased for your ds!

Exeter is loved on MN! One of the favourites. It’s rarely bashed. Except for asking for very high grades and then reducing them. Who bashes Exeter?

If Exeter hadn't been such a PITA to get to it would have been on DD's radar. I used to visit Exeter a lot as a child as I had family there, and have happy memories of the place.

My son is in a Bucks all boys grammar. The boys do/did get offers, but due to the number of children going to uni in the area there are no discretionary offers, eg AAB to boost the number of children from less affluent areas. If it’s the same school my son goes yo, the quality of teaching is far lower than it was when my eldest was at the school and it’s likely fewer applied to Bristol because they’re not predicted AAA*.

My son is in a Bucks all boys grammar. The boys do/did get offers, but due to the number of children going to uni in the area there are no discretionary offers, eg AAB to boost the number of children from less affluent areas.

I went to a Bucks all girls grammar, we could be talking about the same one if it's not a million miles from Amersham.

I understand the levelling up and the need to open up university places to the less advantaged. But it's a blunt instrument. Not sure whether I mentioned it on this thread or another but I know of someone at a private school (with high-earning parents and a nice house) who received an unconditional offer from Durham due to living in a certain part of Cornwall. That starts to feel a bit harsh on other candidates.

Yes. Nearby! It’s all nonsense. There will always be those who try to beat the system. The “rent close to the school” cover was blown. Well probably see parents now “rent on sink estates for uni places.” We would all be better off with a flat and fair system, but this will never happen. All I can say is the quality of education at my son’s school is on free fall, so this is more likely why fewer offers to “top” unis are being made.

We are a family that proves your husband's second point, though I don't think it's 'grim up north', I'm just not familiar with it.
We live in London and though we have been to York, we are more familiar with the SE/SW. The list for my daughter is: Cambridge, Bath, Exeter, Bristol (though maybe not after Open Day), stuck on a fifth. Teacher has recommended Durham, but can't see us visiting before applying.
Our limit was three hours drive/train. I know Exeter is more like four.

Whereabouts in London? Two of our DC have been / are at Birmingham- the M1 has been a pain, quite often, but to get to it in the first place, we have to come across from the seaside end of the Thames Estuary (Essex side) and journey time on a less roadworky day is about 3½ hours.

After the first drop off, our have usually used the train, though.

Trains to York are fast (and Sheffield is nearer).

We’re central London - DD went to York (she rejected St Andrews as being too remote although I loved it) and DS to Warwick.

This may have been mentioned (I have read most but not all of this thread) but I think the influence of a university’s sports reputation is a big reason why some DC select a university. Certainly in the private and grammar school circles I know, there seems to be a split between those who are very academically focused and were often looking for medicine, dentistry, maths and economics at the most academic universities. Then there were DC who balanced a good but not outstanding academic performance with a love of sport and focused on universities that had a good reputation for sports like rugby and hockey. Generally amongst my DC’s friend the ones who got into Oxbridge, LSE etc tended to be very, very focused on their subject and had fewer outside interests like sport (and I know there will always be some exceptions to this generalisation). The sports reputation therefore put places like Bath, Exeter and Durham high on the sporty people’s preferences. Interestingly, not York!

When DDs went to uni, few we know of looked at sport. Many many more looked at location. City or campus. If city, did they want to live there.

Neither of my DDs were that interested in northern unis because some of the ones mentioned above didn’t do their courses. Or were lowly ranked. RG isn’t all
top 20! They didn’t really see themselves up North (except Durham!) as indeed northern DC don’t see themselves south of Nottingham. Regional belonging is strong and certain cities appeal more than others. SE based Dc will travel North to some unis though! Look at the threads to see which ones.

MN is probably regional plus tends to be dominated by the very brainy. I love that only science subjects are mentioned in the post above, plus sport. On MN that’s pretty normal too. Plus the odd discussion on York or UEA for English.

@MarchingFrogs are you asking me? SW London - good for A3. Took us three hours to drive to Bristol - said 2 and 20min when we set off but then the traffic hit! The new roadworks at the M25 junction are a nightmare, plus very busy outside Bristol itself.
York by train would require a change and a bus and be close to four hours, Birmingham doesn't rank high enough for her course and the post graduate stats aren't as good. I mean she has googled 'best university for X degree' and then weighed the various attributes. She'd prefer small city, campus, within three hour journey, work placement/study abroad, academic rigor (she has three A star grades in hand plus A star EPQ) decent accommodation. Not all on her shortlist meet all those requirements, and she's still looking for a fifth, maybe even a fourth if Bristol off the list! Considering LSE even though she'd rather go away.

Good points @TizerorFizz
DD is probably the least sporty person I know, and she would probably have actively avoided the traditionally sporty universities. She knew she didn't want a campus after visiting Warwick and York, disliked Bristol because of the hills (knee joint problems), didn't like that most of the first year accommodation at Nottingham was catered, dislkiked Manchester because it was too big and Leeds and Sheffield were too close. She fell in love with Newcastle.

Her degree is widely available so it was down to what modules were covered and that it was a university in a smallish city. Being only a two hour drive away made it easier, especially when I had to rescue her when lockdown started.

She is applying for post grad now and looking at a universitiy on the south coast - a minimum of 5 hours travelling time, but she isn't 18 any more and has built up a lot more reslience and independence.

Yes, and on the other side of the coin my 3 are all very sporty, and all went on to represent their universities at various sports. But I know that sport didn't factor into their considerations at all – location and course were the important things.

Also FWIW bear in mind that while the likes of Bath, Exeter and Durham are all in the top 10 for sport overall, they may not necessarily be strong in all sports. It's not dissimilar from looking at the overall league table v subject-specific ones for academics. There's little point in going to the best university for men's rugby if the sport you want to play is women's hockey. To pluck a random example, Durham don't do swimming competitively.

Clearly my DCs have a particularly niche circle of friends where sport was a big consideration. So many only shortlisted unis where they could row, play rugby or play hockey etc to a serious standard. Representing their uni wasn’t enough, they wanted high quality uni teams - and these weren’t all budding GB sports scholars (although some were). This gave only around 6 or 7 Russell Group options with 1 or 2 others like Oxford Brookes or Cardiff Met. My eldest DS walked away from Warwick which was a viable choice for him simply because there was no sports stand on the open day! A friend’s son changed course choice as the top uni for his sports didn’t offer that course. Btw, he happily played sport and ended up with a first in that subject!

On the non-sporty side, a huge proportion of their grammar school friends seemed to opt for medicine or dentistry (not sure why these career choices were so popular in the grammars as opposed to other local schools with equally able students) so their choices were determined less by location and which universities had medical schools. Then those truly passionate about their subject wanted Oxbridge but would consider LSE, Imperial etc as their back up choices. Then Exeter, Leeds, Durham, Bristol and Warwick seemed to be the next popular options with a surprisingly large number firming Exeter rather than the London unis when Oxbridge said no to them.

There will of course have been others who didn’t fall into any of these groups but I was surprised at how many in my DCs’ circles prioritised sport as part of their decision making process.

Clearly my DCs have a particularly niche circle of friends where sport was a big consideration. So many only shortlisted unis where they could row, play rugby or play hockey etc to a serious standard.

Same for my son and his friends. He's at Durham but otherwise liked Nottingham and Exeter and turned down an offer from Warwick on sports grounds. Some of his rugby friends went to Durham, Oxford and Edinburgh and Nottingham was popular across the different sports.

Wanting high level sport isn't a totally spurious reason for making your choice. If you see Bristol, Durham and Warwick as similar academically, you have to base your decision on something.

but I was surprised at how many in my DCs’ circles prioritised sport as part of their decision making process.

I expect that sporty people mix with other sporty people. They have always done so at school, so it shouldn't be a surprise that most of your DC's friends wanted a sporty university. DD's friend's are decidedly not sporty at all

When DD was at school the "set one" PE pupils used to be rather dismissive of anyone who wasn't sporty, as they were in my day when I was at school in the 1970s. Nothing changes.

Just out of interest, top 5 universities in those 3 sports are as follows:

Rowing: Durham, Edinburgh, Queens, Newcastle, Oxford Brookes
Rugby: Exeter, Durham, Loughborough, Cardiff Met, Bath
Hockey: Exeter, Nottingham, Birmingham, Loughborough, Durham

But there are outliers. Nottingham Trent is in the UK top 10 for 2 of these sports and top 20 for the other. Brookes are in the top 20 for all 3. Cardiff Met, Hartpury, Northumbria also feature highly in some of these sports.

Interestingly, Bristol don't feature highly, which I had assumed they would. York and Warwick hardly appear in sports league tables at all, so looks like your DS was right to avoid it @Dancingdreamer!

People are lemmings though. Want sport? Only go to the high achieving sports unis. It’s not surprising no one else breaks through into the upper reaches! Rowing? Don’t they need a River? Would the Don be ok in Sheffield? How many DC actually know they want a rowing uni? You might if family are rowers but its still pretty niche and don’t top rowers go abroad to uni?

@RampantIvy I agree with you. Sporty types are a self defining group. Most of DDs friends wanted a different experience.

I have DC at Exeter and Durham. Both are sporty kids at sporty unis.

Unless your DC are capable of making the 1st team for their sport (and county players don't make the 5th teams in some sports at Exeter!), then Durham is by far the better option for sporty DC due to the college sport. Students enjoy hugely competitive (and social!) sport without spending hours each Wednesday on coaches to play some random uni in a desperately one-sided match. There really is no fun in that. DD (Exeter) will not continue playing her sport this year after her team won >20-0 in all but one match last year. Meanwhile DS has really enjoyed playing for his college in 3 different sports at Durham.

DS did archery and cricket at Warwick - went to Barbados with the cricket team although it wasn’t the reason he chose Warwick. DD just wanted to party - she enjoyed York. The remoteness was one of the reasons she rejected the offer from StA.
Both had played a number of sports at a high level at school.

Would the Don be ok in Sheffield?

No, they might bump into a supermarket trolley or two or get beer thrown over them at Kelham Island

When DD was at school the "set one" PE pupils used to be rather dismissive of anyone who wasn't sporty

To be fair, though, most minority interest groups can be cliquey. Chess clubs aren't always particularly welcoming to beginners, choirs tend not to want people who can't sing (as I know!) and book groups prefer people who are prepared to read the books and discuss them… I agree people shouldn't be dismissive of others and their interests, but it's understandable that students will want to socialise with others who share their main extra-curricular interest.

University sport is regionalised up to the top league (which is usually only 6-8 universities) so its only at national standard that a DC will be doing tons of travelling.

Damflask Reservoir

https://www.sheffielduniversityrowingclub.co.uk/facilities

Prioritising high end sport! LSE merely as back up! A surprising move out of London! Durham way down in tier three! Medicine or dentistry common!

I’m not mocking. I’m just curious about where this world lives, because it’s rather far away from my own school days.