York, Durham, Exeter

[GodessOfThunder]

These universities seem feature in a disproportionate amount of discussion on Mumsnet as institutions commenters see as desirable for their DC to attend. Obviously they are well regarded universities, but why do they attract more discussion here than other Russell group universities, especially those in northern and midlands post-industrial cities such as Manchester, Sheffield, Leeds, Liverpool, Nottingham and Birmingham?

A few possible reasons were suggested by DH:

• They enjoy an undue level of perceived prestige due to being in smaller old cities/towns like Oxbridge
• The Mumsnet user base is skewed towards the SE and biased against post-industrial cities. Mumsnetters are less likely to be familiar with them and hold “grim up north” perceptions.
• There is a “showing off” factor in starting threads and commenting that DC has applied for, or attends, these institutions - the same goes for the “Oxbridge support” threads, the like of which you never see for red bricks.

Does anyone agree, or are there other explanatory factors?

https://www.onrec.com/news/news-archive/grad-salaries-soar-as-employers-jostle-for-talent

Average salaries are always difficult to quantify - not everyone wants to be a lawyer or accountant in a big London firm.

As I said, location matters. Few actually get the big salaries in London. Degree matters. University matters. Grad starting salaries have not moved for around 10 years. However after 10 years, we do see improvement but presumably these figures are after historically low inflation and correspondingly low pay rises. The people who do get annual increments and pay rises can do better then they think.

It is much more about the kid than the institution I think. Those who can show previous employment (in any job) with a good work ethic, a go-getting attitude, good written English and comms skills who put themselves out there in an intelligent way get hired by good firms and do well. Of my DD and her friends those who are doing best are the good communicators who work bloody hard. She is the highest earning 3 years after graduating - earning mid sixties and completed a masters and professional quals while also working - from Sheffield Uni. Her lowest earning school friends are both linguists from Durham but are just a bit aimless and never did any holiday or other work. Since graduating they have done a series of useless unpaid “internships” (read long term unpaid work) for fashion / publishing companies. One friend from oxford is doing brilliantly and will outearn DD soon, another is living at home and hasn’t worked at all because he is looking for the perfect job but hasn’t decided what that is and is now 3 years out with no track record so who would hire him??

I started work for Andersens in 1995, and salaries were around 19k, so 25k seems a big jump.

It was AA (sorry, I couldn't be bothered to explain the whole big six to four part...). Think I started on a £20k base but earned another 30% overtime in my first year (they scrapped it a year or two later).

@Delphigirl You have nit the nail on the head. Ambition matters. My DD did MFL and she’s a high earning barrister. If young people just take internships that’s up to them. They don’t have to take this route. It’s choice.

Many grads take professional qualifications. Many don’t need masters level for that, but some do. However if you choose a notoriously difficult career like fashion that’s about who you know, and you possibly won’t get far. The people who work out what they want and go for it, do better. Of course the fashion interns might be blissfully happy. DD had friends doing very little after getting a very decent degree (Durham, Warwick) but they didn’t want much. They will get married and will not be juggling career and children! Perhaps they see that as a result?

Maybe @TizerorFizz - that’s never been for me and I’ve raised all my kids to be self reliant and independent. Horses for courses though I guess, if that’s what a young woman wants. Seems awfully precarious!

I don’t object to internships, I do object to unpaid ‘internships’ which are anything more than a week or so work experience. Most of them are actually employment and so breach the minimum wage legislation for starters. I’ve had to give a few stiff talks to young people about not giving their labour away for free. That is one thing my generation never had to contend with - nobody expected us to work for free!!

Yes, it certainly depends on what you, individually, count as "success" and sometimes that can be different between parents and their children! I have great A-level results, and degrees from Oxford, Cambridge, and London.

I'm a teacher, in an independent school. I could probably have earned a lot more, but as I ease myself into my 8-week summer holiday (which has enabled me to spend loads of time with the kids over the years) and check my TPS pension statement (planning to retire at 57), I don't regret choosing that path. I could probably have made it to SLT if I had focused on that, but what I enjoy is the teaching rather than the administration and management! (Although the profession is very different now to how it was as I started.) As mentioned before, DD and DS are very different in their expectations and planned paths, from me, from my DW (who is a university academic, also not a 'high earner' by City standards), and from each other.

As for internships, DD (undergrad in an art/design field) has done a one-month paid internship this summer and it's been an amazing experience for her. When it comes to her placement year, her current thinking is that she would definitely take a paid placement, but an unpaid one would only be worth it if it is with a prestigious place. (She could just about fund it from savings, see comments above.) But if she can't find anything, she'll just go straight to third-year. Sounds sensible to me.

Ambition matters.

Yes it does, but how do you define ambition? As @PhotoDad has posted ambition isn't necessarily just about the ££££. I think it is fair to say that most people want job satisfaction, a decent life/work balance and to enjoy their career as well as being well numerated for it.

Working for the big 4 (not even sure who they are anyway), as a lawyer or financier simply does not appeal to everyone.

DD's health issues mean that office work is a no no for her. She would just fall asleep if sat at a desk all day (she has CFS). She likes to engage with people and wants to work in a healthcare allied role. Pharmacy work suits her just now, and she is currently studying for pharmacy qualifications.

She also wants to do a masters in a slightly different role, but one that will always guarantee her work. Will it earn her a 6 figure annual salary? No, but it will earn her enough to give her the work/life balance, job satisfaction and good pension that she needs.

I could probably have made it to SLT if I had focused on that, but what I enjoy is the teaching rather than the administration and management!

Quite so, @PhotoDad. As with teaching, so with nursing, physiotherapy and various other professions allied to medicine. So the good ones face the choice between career progression which ironically then takes them away from direct patient contact, or resigning themselves to never earning beyond a certain point, or going into private work which takes them out of the NHS altogether. There really ought to be a route to salary progression which still allows those who want to, to teach/practise on a daily basis.

In principle, I totally agree with @Delphigirl about unpaid work, but it some fields it has long been the case that this is the only route in. 20 years ago DH was head of comms at a very well-known football club and frequently employed interns. They only received token pay (although their travel and expenses were covered), but they were given proper work to do – liaising between players/staff and the media, setting up photo shoots and interviews, covering matches etc. If the experience is going to be priceless, you do have to weigh that up versus standing by your principles.

D1 couldn't put York as her insurance which she would have liked to as the offer was AAA, the same as her Oxford offer.

She said she and her friends had discussed how annoying it was that they already lived in Newcastle as that was obviously the best place to be a student. Castles and cathedrals weren't really a factor (though Newcastle has those too ) and as parents we had absolutely no input into any of her choices.

@Delphigirl Plenty of people do take a less ambitious route to employment! It’s not uncommon. Not that I think my DDs should do this either (one did!) but not everyone feels the same. You probsbly need to understand that fashion is notoriously difficult to get into and internships are the norm. Possibly your DD, and certainly my DD1 never had to consider this. Difficult if you do. So having a moral stance does not always work. As I discovered!

Plenty of women trying to juggle “having it all” find they don’t have much of anything at all.

Few teachers @PhotoDad admit to your employment terms. On mn teachers seem to dislike teaching and won’t admit to early retirement opportunities and long holidays. It’s refreshing to see an honest appraisal of the job and that it’s not always awful. It is still a job with many positives.

By contrast, my DH still works and is 70 soon. Some people have very long working lives.

@TizerorFizz I am extremely lucky in my job, although even for me things aren't quite as enjoyable as they were 5 or 10 years ago. However, I am absolutely not going to generalise about teaching in general; I know people in other schools whose lives are increasingly miserable (both independent and state sectors).

I was also incredibly fortunate in entering teaching literally the year before the pension rules first changed; there's been another change since. (After a stint of doing other things and working abroad, in case anyone wants to do the maths... I've steadily been buying back those missed years, which also isn't an option under the current schemes.)

The main thing I want for teenagers is that they make informed choices on the kind of work/life and pay they want. It has always been hard for them to make those choices because at 18 you have no experience of bills or how expensive life is.

On average graduate pay those tables are never particularly helpful because in m ost jobs there are those on the upper end of pay and those at the bottom. Eg some law firm partners might make £2m a year. Some legal aid lawyers might be on £20k - £40k for life. My children's father is a teacher (and wants to work as long as he can) - private school even though already has his (taxed) pension.

You misunderstand me - I was referring to your comment that some people have no ambition beyond marriage and children. That was what I was saying horses for courses but seems precarious about. Sorry I wasn’t clearer

Yes. I do agree but I’ve seen it quite a lot with girls at DDs schools. Many mums gave up careers. As did I. Or never really had one. Some, like me, did want DDs to have careers and enjoy the success they’ve earned. Others definitely see success as a husband! People value different things. I am not sure they view marriage as precarious. After all, theirs haven’t been. It seems to me they never worried about DDs having a career at all. Anyone looking at my posts would see I feel differently!

Starting salary Big 8 c£8k, Qualilfy 3 years later as Big 6 c£24k. - Regional. Now Firm is Big 4, same grads = £40-48K on Qualification. Big 6 firms, very similar, BDO technically highest earners as they get paid overtime. Don't want to share which firm but it made the transition from 8 to 4.

I qualified magic circle law on £27k in 1994. Now it is about £140,000 😱😱😱😱😱😱😱 (might be more but I can’t bear to look).

So that advice would be something like: if you want a big house in London/SE, to send your kids to private school and plenty have of expensive stuff, then go to Oxbridge, Durham, Exeter or Warwick and work in the City, for a management consultancy or become a commercially-minded lawyer?

They are certainly routes to getting paid at the higher end, but it’s all deeply conformist isn’t it? And rather materialistic.

There are literally hundreds of thousands of happy graduates living happy lives outside of these cliched notions of “success”.

It’s understandable that people who grew up in the South East and have family there may want to stay. And will be well informed about the costs of living in the area. Let them crack on.

I live in London as do most of friends. None of of us made any of these choices.

I would say that advice is fairly typical of what I saw at my DCs independent school, with the possible addition of' go into medicine/ dentistry' too.

In reality, lots of kids seem to end up in professions frightening similar to their parents! Mine aren't heading in that direction (yet!) thankfully.

What people could afford in London in the last century is miles away from what can be afforded now! It’s a different world. So what @PhotoDad has achieved is a dream for those in the SE expensive areas.

In case no one has noticed, many grads don’t buy a property without parental help. You need the big bucks to buy. It’s very affordable to live cheaply in some areas in the north where two people earning £30-40,000 each will get a great house together. In London, a small flat at best. If they earn £30,000 - forget it. So whatever parents think about happiness, money talks. Or they live with you forever. But it’s regional. There’s no doubt many grads won’t get by without parental money. Or from grandparents. So doing a job you love that’s poorly paid might well have consequences. No one on these threads seems to have to worry about this for their Dc. My friends worry all the time!

*They are certainly routes to getting paid at the higher end, but it’s all deeply conformist isn’t it? And rather materialistic.

There are literally hundreds of thousands of happy graduates living happy lives outside of these cliched notions of “success”.*

I take your point but I don't see it as a cliche to choose a highly paid job. Earning a lot of money brings happiness to some people and it's ok to be motivated by money. Others are motivated by different things, whether work-life balance or helping others.

Investment banking can pay large bonuses if you're successful. You've also got very little job security, work stupid hours and it's brutally stressful. You miss holidays, weddings and the rest. I'm the first to warn my kids of the sacrifices and downsides for that type of job but if they think that would make them happy, I'll support them.

I didn't see working in investment banking as deeply conformist as a woman either. As one of only two females in a department of 100 male fee earners, I wanted to help us challenge gender cliches in a traditionally male dominated job.

It's fine to be motivated primarily by money, crack on, I say. It's the assumption on MN that everyone is motivated by money which needs challenging, as lots of our DCs' generation are not.

@TizerorFizz makes some good points about needing to afford the lifestyle you would like, but there are consequences to any decisions – for example, missing big family events because you have to work wouldn't suit me at all. And there isn't enough money in the world to convince me to return to commuting into London 5 days a week and working 10-hour days as I used to. And I do worry about their finances, but I also worry about my DCs doing something they enjoy, having a work-life balance, having positive mental health, having a social life beyond work etc etc. It's up to each individual to figure out what works best for them.