York, Durham, Exeter

[GodessOfThunder]

These universities seem feature in a disproportionate amount of discussion on Mumsnet as institutions commenters see as desirable for their DC to attend. Obviously they are well regarded universities, but why do they attract more discussion here than other Russell group universities, especially those in northern and midlands post-industrial cities such as Manchester, Sheffield, Leeds, Liverpool, Nottingham and Birmingham?

A few possible reasons were suggested by DH:

• They enjoy an undue level of perceived prestige due to being in smaller old cities/towns like Oxbridge
• The Mumsnet user base is skewed towards the SE and biased against post-industrial cities. Mumsnetters are less likely to be familiar with them and hold “grim up north” perceptions.
• There is a “showing off” factor in starting threads and commenting that DC has applied for, or attends, these institutions - the same goes for the “Oxbridge support” threads, the like of which you never see for red bricks.

Does anyone agree, or are there other explanatory factors?

“Rah”, at least when I was at university, was a name used to describe a certain type of highly-privileged privately educated character: typically from the Home Counties, from a wealthy background, investment banker/lawyer father, conservative outlook on life and politics, skis, has a car when everyone else has to get the bus, often found at Durham or Exeter, etc. etc.

It’s fine to poke a bit of fun at such types. And yes, it’s fine to make friends with them too. Some I’m sure are nice people. But, if we cease to recognise unearned privilege and critique it, with humour often being an effective strategy for doing so, then the country to continue to be the unequal shit pit it is. The UK has a very unfavourable level of inequality compared with many other developed countries, and suffers from all the issues this brings.

She doesn't 'hurl' names at anyone.

'I can't come to Polzeath because Daddy has arranged an internship for me before we go to Italy'
'OMG Tilly you are so rah'
'Lol I know right?!'

So we can help solve the country’s inequality problems by mocking 18 year olds for their accents and our superficial perceptions of what sort of people we assume they are. 🙄

I think you are doing your own DC a great disservice by encouraging this sort of attitude/behaviour, a much greater one than the DC you don’t even know who you presume need taking down a peg.

If it’s not right to “other” people, then it is not right. If it is not right to make superficial judgements about people we don’t know, then it is not right. If it is wrong to stereotype people, then it is wrong. Period. No exceptions. No justifications. No “punching up.”

Who is encouraging this?
I don't think anyone is. I merely stated that it is a commonly used student term among some students. It doesn't mean I agree with it.

It’s always amusing to see an attempt to apply the concept of “othering” to the wealthy and privileged. I’m sure most rahs will do just fine in life regardless of a bit of piss taking they likely aren’t even aware of.

My husband and I met at Durham and my son has ended up there too. But he also applied to Warwick, Exeter, Nottingham and Bath.

The courses were pretty similar so his three criteria were:

• Graduate prospects - as PPs have mentioned, he looked at the most popular unis in terms of recruitment by management consultancy firms
• Sport - he's a hockey player and the top four unis are Exeter, Durham, Loughborough and Nottingham
• Feel of the location/city and campus/collegiate

We live near London (Herts/Bucks border) so he dismissed the London unis. They're also not so good for sport and have a different feel, being more spread out and a high degree of international students.

Most popular amongst his cohort (selective private school) were: Oxbridge (but numbers have fallen significantly), Durham, Warwick, Imperial and Loughborough for engineering and Edinburgh and St As. Also a lot of pupils to Nottingham and Exeter, although some as second choices.

I think students can end up at the universities you mention but for valid reasons beyond perceived prestigiousness.

I don't think my dd would give a shit if described as Rah. She's perfectly aware that some state school kids think she must be a posh twat due to her school. She has nice friends from state school and both parties are often agog at tales from either school tbh

it’s not right to “other” people, then it is not right. If it is not right to make superficial judgements about people we don’t know, then it is not right. If it is wrong to stereotype people, then it is wrong. Period. No exceptions. No justifications. No “punching up.

1. Well in the example given the students did know each other. So what’s the problem using Rah between friends.
2. Rah is about stereotype behaviours. It’s possible to be poor and not be a Chav as it is to be well off and not be a Rah.
3. I know people then and now that are Rahs and believe me they are very comfortable with being thought of as Rah.
4. Exeter isn’t that high on any league tables except for having a posh ( also white and privately educated) cohort.

Rahs were definitely a thing in the 90s and despite being a gobby northern kid some of my best mates turned out to be rahs. In turn I know one at least happened to find me and my equally gooby northern mates rather refreshing and we had a good time.

It's not necessarily a judgement thing. Just categorising people (note I called myself a gobby northerner).

Doesn't mean I won't like the person 🤷‍♀️

I don’t remember DC’s ever saying where their Uni friends had been to school or being asked themselves. Wouldn’t have been relevant or important.

Exeter is a really good university particularly for some subjects. Think it's about 14th in the CUG league tables.

Moving on from the opinions regarding name-calling derail, The Complete university guide has released their 2024 ranking.

Top 10 as follows:

1. Cambridge
2. Oxford
3. LSE
4. St Andrews
5. Bath
6. Imperial
7. Loughborough
8. Durham
9. UCL
10. Lancaster
11. Warwick
12. Edinburgh
13. Surrey
14. Birmingham
15. Exeter
16. Bristol
17. Southampton
18. York
19. Manchester
20. Sheffield

The tables are all different (The Times, The Guardian, QS, etc.) the way our personal league tables in are different…but this list doesn’t seem crazy. I’d be delighted for my DC to attend any of these universities. Different families might be drawn to different ones for reasons of geography, extra-curriculars, culture etc. York, Durham and Exeter all look like solid choices.

I discount these guides as different Uni’s have different courses and what one Uni offers is better for different students. One Uni isn’t strong on everything.

Only 7 of those offer my DDs course (Arabic) and the order for her subject would probably be
Ox/Camb
Exeter/Edinburgh
Durham/St Andrews
Manchester

But you might move it around a bit depending on whether you wanted an emphasis on literature/religion or politics/history. Also it takes St A 5 years to offer what the others do in 4 so on that basis you could put it last.

so yes you have to look at it by subject and also by course detail, really

Well exactly, everyone’s personal list is tailored to them specifically. That’s why it is unreasonable yo say that parents and children shouldn’t be delighted with York, Durham, and Exeter.

I don't think the OP thinks that - the question was why are these universities seen as more desirable than others that are according to the rankings, "better".

You don't see much mention of UCL on here, which surprises me.

I think the MN obsession with league tables is unhealthy. I think the DC should be able to choose their subject and university without all that influence. If they are smart enough to be at Uni, they should be smart enough to choose the right one for them. There are much more significant factors driving their future career success than which Uni they chose. Letting them grow up and be the authors of their own futures is most probably quite a key one.

Very well put @Chipirones

That’s correct.

This ranking (although obvs all the rankings have methodological biases) confirms that Mumsnetters’ often overrate York, Bristol, Exeter and Durham. As others have hypothesised, this is likely due to some combination of a) the poshness/private school % of the student body b) the attractiveness of the city they are situated in (Bristol being slightly less so) c) the whiteness of the student body. More specifically, in this ranking

• Durham isn’t “second only to Oxbridge.”
• Bristol, Exeter and York don’t appear to be anything special vs other RG+ institutions.

Upthread it was claimed Exeter was one of three institutions targeted by “higher paying graduate employers” (eg. law, banking). If this is so, it reveals the pernicious class bias still present in our society, because Exeter is nothing special in the ranking.

Probably because UCL is a) in London with the expense that entails b) seen as having too many international students (a bad thing often on MN) c) the UK students that do go there are skewed towards ethnic backgrounds underrepresented on MN

If you are using those rankings then Exeter is above Manchester and Sheffield.

It's colder the further North you go and dd preferred Exeter to Manchester.

I mean, does it really matter? Students go where they choose,.or sometimes not (clearing) and usually have a nice time and do OK.

Within some broad tiers, no, I don’t think it should really matter. But there are seemingly lots of perceptions out there seemingly based in class bias, which is concerning when it comes to, say, recruitment. Hopefully this thread has helped unpick them a little for those reading it.

That’s the point though, they’re not. Everyone knows LSE is an excellent Uni as is UCL but they aren’t regarded as particularly desirable. Nor is Surrey, Sheffield or even Warwick.
Everyone recognises you can have a good time and get a well recognised degree from any of them. But that’s not why Exeter is currently so popular.

Well, that's open to interpretation but it doesn't change my point. Whether it is an obsession with league tables or what is an acceptable face-saving destination to discuss at dinner parties, the principle is the same. Let the DC decide. It is their life, their future and if they choose a university because it is the school rugby team favourite that year, so be it. When I look back, I chose my University with such conviction that I was going to make a huge success of it and leverage it to the full. If it had been a mistake, it would have been my mistake. I find the degree of parental intervention claustrophobic just reading about it. When I see "we like" talking about open days, it sets my teeth on edge.

I doubt too many mumsnetters choose a university because it is whiter although that might inevitably flow from certain other factors such as geographical location. I think the UK has always been much more about class than colour.

Certainly I think if you want the fulluniversity experience it will just about always be better at Oxbridge than LSE because of the nature of your day to day life, sports, rowing, college choirs. Obviously depends on the student - if you are international and very rich and daddy's penthouse for your use is in London you might well pick London.

So I do agree that the environment can be part of the choice to an extent.
I don't think the fact children from better state grammars (or private schools) go there is a defining reason to choose somewhere, although it can be helpful if your friends are getting good jobs to be within that peer pressure of everyone is being sensible about good careers vibe as teeagers and young adults often want to do what their friends do.

On the 70% private at Bristol Churchill Hall my son joked that he was the poor boy (only been only to a day private school) from the disadvantaged background - in a very slight sense..... not that it mattered to anyone.

(As my twins finished last summer (last exams ever) I should probably leave the MN higher education threads soon - perhaps we need a first careers/graduate jobs bit as they move into that next stage of life).