Why are most degree apprenticeships not from top universities.

[Theworried]

My son initially was looking at a few degree apprenticeships this year but found out that the degrees are often not from the very highest ranked universities- e.g UCl, Oxbridge, LSE, Warwick, Imperial. For example the Bank of England’s Economics Degree Apprenticeship is from the University of Kent. Surely if as a country we want to encourage more young people to do degree apprenticeships, the Government should encourage some of the highest ranked unis to take part?

Also OP once you have work experience nobody cares about your degree. Just that you have one.
I wouldn't worry about brand recognition if your son is aiming to go in as an experience hire

Exactly right

Warwick do offer them

https://warwick.ac.uk/study/degreeapprenticeships/

I think what you've written is a bit harsh. PwC have Accountancy Flying Start degrees at 5 Uni's : RG. It is incredibly competitive to get on. Ds1 is at loving Nottingham and will do 3 months of work experience in September with PwC in London.

The idea that no one looks at a degree a few years into a career is rubbish. Employers do. It might have less relevance but it’s part of the cv and the overall picture.

I don't think PWCs Flying Start degrees are degree apprenticeships in the way people are referring to elsewhere in the thread? Don't those taking the course still take loans for fees and maintenance?

As has been mentioned up thread the administrative burden of the apprenticeship standards overlayed on academic standards are a complex ballache. Apprenticeships are regulated by OFSTED who can come in at any time for an unannounced inspection and have a very different view on teaching and learning to the traditional HE academic teaching approach.

If an institution didn't need the cash they wouldn't do it. Top RG universities tend not to need cash quite as cravenly as the rest of the sector

I mean as someone who recruited into financial services I’d definitely have interviewed someone for grad scheme who was 22 and had 3/4 years experience at the BoE, wherever their degree was from, providing they had good A-levels, and they wouldn’t get onto the apprenticeship without them because I imagine the BoE are fairly fussy. Makes you stand out from the pile a bit. I think generally they’re an excellent idea especially for degrees with more practical application like engineering or architecture.

This!!!! They're hideous to run!

And whilst it's true that four years of work with a degree from a lower ranked is going to look great to potential employers when you're aged 22. But you have to think a bit longer term - in some careers four years experience plus an RG degree would trump seven years experience and a post92 degree.

I can only speak for the corporate finance part of investment banking but 95% of people were recently qualified lawyers or ACAs from the big four. We took a few grads straight from university but it was a better career move to join at the next level up.

That meant there wasn't a need for an apprentice style qualification, just an academic degree from a decent uni to get into the firm. The nature of the job was sufficiently specific that it wouldn't really lend itself to a finance or banking type vocational degree. (Although I can understand that it wouldn't harm either).

I'd say it's because the "top" universities are more about academia, knowledge, research etc., and less interested in real world jobs and employment.

The lower ranked Unis tend to be more interested in jobs/employment for their graduates and more likely to form partnerships with employers.

Perhaps we need two different "types" of uni, one for employment/work and the other for "learning for the fun of learning". Two very different types of "education".

Yes we could call them universities and polytechnics…. Oh wait ….. honestly, I agree with you.
I feel like online learning has opened up new opportunities in hybrid tertiary education that it would be stupid to ignore because the vast majority of graduates are going to get jobs ex- academia.

Probably because it doesn't matter. The student graduates with a combination of skills from the programme and it is, inevitably, going to be the experience and work skills that are the most important thing on their CV for moving onwards and upwards.

Well, if degree apprenticeships are so much trouble, why would employers bother to run them?
Answer : Because there is a shortage of talent, and they need it.
Ergo, the careers in which degree apprenticeships are offered are probably not the same careers in which degree prestige matters.
If people were falling over themselves to apply, and they were the perfect candidates why bother with degree apprenticeships? Maybe cheap labour, but the admin as you said outweighs that.

In mine (technology) for example there's a big spectrum of 'technical' jobs. You can't become, say an AI researcher with a software engineering degree from Manchester Met, or get a computer science theory heavy job.
You can however work for FAANG, become a CTO, there is no shortage of jobs. Especially if you've done a lot of work on your own projects, contributed to open source, that sort of thing.

I meant they're a nightmare for the university - they're a doddle for the employer.

I think different industries do not go with the traditional ranking of universities, which are based on academic research rather than industry value

Actually, 'top academics' are very very interested in the real world... half their work is applying for grants and funding.
It's a job too.
Gone were the ivory tower days when people just tossed money at a bunch of scientists.
It's the same with corporations.
If you look at the early history of companies like IBM, General Electric, etc they used to have teams of researchers working on any project they fancied.
Now all of that is gone. Even 'innovative' companies consistent put pressure on costs, quick return on earnings, etc.

It depends on the firm but I do so much more paperwork for my apprentice than graduate., Making sure they meet their learning outcomes, blah blah blah. So much work....

Exeter uni do them - I’m doing their pgdip level 7 apprenticeship and is good/hard/an emotional rollercoaster… I work full time and have 3 dc.

You can pay them much less though (I realise many employers do pay more than they need), and you're losing 5% of your payroll to the levy anyway so you may as well use it!

The thread was about why post 92s and not RGs on the whole - and the bureaucracy is a major reason why.

@WasabiWinner Don't get me started on the paperwork - the constant mapping of the gazillion apprenticeship standards - which are generally so vague that it requires guesswork at best and at worst I just randomly sprinkle them across a programme. It's very little to do with actual teaching and learning or gaining concrete competencies and more to do with creating layer upon layer of administrative burden to keep the apprenticeship industry in work

Going to have a lie down

That makes sense! I had a quick Google and never knew that large employers had to pay the levy anyway.
Explains why we take so many apprentices.
I mean, I knew that they were cheap, but given the amount of time and effort we spend training them only for them to leave after 4 years (because that's the easiest way to get a big pay rise), I didn't think that maths would work out.
I do like our (well, my team's) apprentices though. Bright, switched on and for school leavers extraordinarily capable and self-starting.

@damekindness oh my god yes. So much rubbish.
As a good management BS-er (despite being a programmer) I am often called upon to describe our work such that it fits the outcomes for all the team's apprentices.

Have you tried using ChatGPT? It answers these prompts amazingly.

@illiterato Just to let you know that professional qualified engineers will have high level maths ability. And preferably a MEng. It’s not grad engineers who fiddle with machines! A practical attitude helps but it won’t get you very far.

Also. another point @titchy - do you think RG's would do more degree apprenticeships if it wasn't for the bureaucracy? Can they charge what they like?
If it's the same, or less, than local fees then it's really not in their best interests.

Given X amount of teaching resources they'd make far more increasing the international student intake, online courses, short courses, partnerships with foreign universities. The brand name is very valuable internationally.

Something that the 'less well-known', for want of a better word, universities don't have.

No they can't charge what they like. The fees for each apprenticeship is set by ESFA/IFATE or whoever (I forget!), but the levy can only be used to pay the fee set - for many degree apprenticeships the fee is about £22k - compared to almost £28k for a fee loan. And 20% of the total is held back till the apprentice has completed their EPA.