Why are most degree apprenticeships not from top universities.

[Theworried]

My son initially was looking at a few degree apprenticeships this year but found out that the degrees are often not from the very highest ranked universities- e.g UCl, Oxbridge, LSE, Warwick, Imperial. For example the Bank of England’s Economics Degree Apprenticeship is from the University of Kent. Surely if as a country we want to encourage more young people to do degree apprenticeships, the Government should encourage some of the highest ranked unis to take part?

We had exactly the same conversation. I was quite keen for DS to look into them, as he is interested in Economics. He's predicted 4 A* grades at A Level. The trouble is degree apprenticeships are too new to judge how well they will compare with a Maths degree from Imperial, so student debt it is, I guess!

It’s not what “top” universities do.
Check out the top universities for degree apprenticeships.

@mynameisnotmichaelcaine We had the same dilemma with regards to economics! Some of the careers my son will try to aim for such as corporate law, investment banking etc. want a degree from a top uni so it seems a shame that none of them run degree apprenticeships with employers.

@cuckyplunt Sorry I didn’t mean to use the word ‘top’ in an offensive fashion. I meant to say those who tend to rank the highest in UK/World Uni rankings and those with the highest academic entry requirements/ entry process.

Oh I looked into this a while back and asked a friend who works at a uni! Warwick offers some through WMG.

Degree apprenticeships are a completely different thing from degrees - 80% of the time is spent at work so it needs a lot of tailored work with employers and a reworked curriculum.

It's not quite as simple as offering an "apprenticeship version" of a degree, and most unis struggle to deliver existing programmes well enough anyway at the moment.

@cuckyplunt But surely, as some employers still do wish to employ those who went to the highest ranked universities, they would wish to develop degree apprenticeship programs with them?

Managing apprenticeships is a ball-ache and a half. The paperwork is endless. And the setup is very different from full-time degrees, which is what "top" unis are based on. There's absolutely no incentive for them to put in the significant time and money that would be required for them to set up and manage degree apprenticeships.

That said, I am currently doing a masters apprenticeship with a high-ranked Russell UK uni, so there are some, although predominantly not undergrad.

I think it's quite obvious why.

Universities as originally conceived are not more advanced versions of school and education isn't their primary purpose.

An old (pre 1990s) university was founded first and foremost to advance the boundaries of human knowledge, with the greatest thinkers in each field of endeavour mainly dedicating their lives to active research towards new discoveries.

In this model, students are somewhat incidental. Those at the top have post-doctoral and doctoral students who might aid their professor's research in some cases, or just be a coterie of admirers in others. Undergraduates in these kind of universities are quite low in the food-chain but a bright and enquiring mind with the potential to reach professor level one day will want to get their grounding in university level study at the feet of the foremost minds in that field. Most lectures won't be from that professor but will be from various members of the coterie of post-docs. The teaching is an intrinsic part of creating the pipeline of future doctoral students but educating people to get a BSc and then go and work elsewhere rather than staying in research is not the primary objective, it's a by-product of the main function.

These universities have absolutely no need to participate in apprenticeship degree programs. They aren't trying to prepare people for employment, they are trying to prepare people to become the foremost academics advancing the frontiers of human knowledge. People who leave university with a Bachelor degree and go elsewhere for a career are the unsuccessful fallouts from that process, not the intended product.

Some 1900s-1960s universities occupy a somewhat half-way-between status, and the post 1990s universities are definitely more geared towards teaching rather than research, and the whole concept of degree apprenticeships fits with their model of functioning much better.

Lower-ranked universities are broke. They need to diversify their income and are offering degree apprenticeships despite the administrative PITA that they are.

Higher-ranked universities don't need to.

I graduated from a ‘top’ university a long time ago, and the name of the uni does open doors. Now as an employer of graduates. I notice that it’s often the former polytechnics that offer degree apprenticeships and they often make for better employees.

These institutions typically have a long history of offering these types of opportunities, or sandwich courses with a year in industry, working with mature students and with people from disadvantaged / unconventional backgrounds. Some of them are excellent universities overall. Some courses are really excellent within otherwise mediocre universities. The best ones are very experienced at spotting potential and developing talent and skills. Think the young person who is very bright, but has poor grades because she’s been a carer for her disabled mum and had to work a part time job to bring money into the household.

The problem is getting employers and potential students to understand that the quality of graduate from some of these courses are fantastic and that they are missing out.

Should Russell group unis do more of this? Yes possibly, but they won’t necessarily have the most experience in delivering the programmes successfully. Would I pick a ‘top’ uni or a lesser one that offers a degree apprenticeship? Hard to say - what would really help would be to look at both, and to ring around some employer HR departments to see where they prefer to recruit from.

Also agree with @JaukiVexnoydi

Some of the lower ranking unis are more geared towards teaching than research.

They cannot be a university without research.

The pre-90's universities were give a LOT of money to invest in capitals to aid research.

The newer ones as mainly teaching colleges rebranded as universities and not given investment.

It's a bloody mess, all government interference and meddling. Each have their place and purpose yet they are lumped together to compete.

Perhaps they should have left the polytechnics to do what they excelled in??

In my view, once someone has several years experience, the degree university becomes irrelevant. I think many employers would choose someone who had proved themselves by working through an apprentice degree over fresh graduate from a top university. In my experience, some of those that come out of our top research universities are hopeless in the workplace as they are too academic!

@RandomMess They absolutely should have done. Plus colleges of HE too! We used to have a great programme of day release. These courses were never at the older universities. Work and polys plus HE seemed to work well. The polys offered degrees allied to work. I didn’t see what was wrong with that model. We needed a split of vocational/technical and academic. With overlaps obviously.

Having said that, the old unis also taught grads for the professions. Law, Engineering and medicine come to mind. So it was not black and white.

When it comes to apprentice degrees, I think they are different due to the large amount of assessment at work. The universities like Imperial simply don’t need to do this. Also other employers, post apprenticeship, might look at degree and uni. Are the prospects really just as good with a degree from a post 92 in all fields of work? The data from IFS says no.

Because degree apprenticeships degrees are not academic. They're much more like a vocational qualification with a large proportion of the grades coming from work-based projects.
And people don't discount them because they want to go to a 'top uni' instead. They discount them because they want to actually go to university. Either because they're unsure, actually love their subject (that may not be offered as sa degree apprenticeship). Many reasons.

Work experience counts for more than a degree, so your son should be fine but his apprentice might discount him from graduate schemes as they might specify less than 2 years work experience.

I completely agree with this. The problem is that potential students have wrongly been led to believe the the top/RG unniversities pave the way to a non-academic career. Unfortunately, the demise of polytechnics has just caused confusion and people compare old and new without a full understanding of the differences.

It's not quite as simple as offering an "apprenticeship version" of a degree, and most unis struggle to deliver existing programmes well enough anyway at the moment

100% agree, universities really seem to struggle to get students through the EPA part.

IIRC there was a similarish thread not so long ago and a recruiter said to go for the solid degree every time. They gave reasons, which seemed to make sense, but I can't remember what they were now.

The degree might reflect the aspiration levels and ability of the candidates. to a certain extent.
Of course, this is anecdotal, but DH graduated from a low ranked university in computing. Very local, northern university with few international students.
He was the only one of his cohort to get onto a large graduate scheme.
The rest didn't bother, they all got local jobs in the field.
The university didn't have great career support unlike my 'prestigious' university but they did highlight big employers etc.
There was nothing to stop these people applying. They just didn't want to.

Getting 'a' job is different from getting a shot at the 'top jobs'.

I think it depends on what the degree apprenticeship is in. A degree apprenticeship through ey, Accenture, etc. I don’t think I’d be too worried where my degree was from as I’d have a job already?

Also to add at the 'prestigious' university I went to the atmosphere was very different. Careers were a big thing, work experience, etc, lots of exposure to large employers and numerous different pathways. Everyone was very aware of what to do to bolster their CV, and the application process etc.

OP's son doesn't want the job. Just the free degree, they then want to pivot into a more, erm, 'prestigious' role.

@WasabiWinner
I totally agree with you. The IFS found earnings for Economics grads from Wolverhampton substantially lower than grads from LSE. So not all grads are the same even when the subject is. That goes for ambition and personality too. I also think uni ranking and opinions rarely take “wanting it” into account. Also who Dc associate with matters. Ambitious people or others who don’t really want to push themselves? However lots of people are happy with staying local and, of course, that’s their choice. So it’s horses for courses. I’m not sure I’d take Kent over a prestigious uni though, in the circumstances.

Is there any data about apprentice earnings at 25 (having been a post A level 18 year old starter) and grad earnings at 25 when the grads have been to Imperial or LSE? Just musing!

@Thelondonone I think my son was worried about the fact that perhaps it would be hard to leave that specific career if he didn’t enjoy it or for example if he wanted to move abroad, where apprenticeships are sometimes not as well recognised. If you could get the brand recognition of a highly ranked university in addition to lots of experience in the workplace with a degree apprenticeship, it would seem a win-win opportunity.
However it would probably make degree apprenticeships even more competitive than they are now.

Even if there is the picture would still be complete - unless you compared like for like. I.e. same field, same employer, apprentice vs graduate.
A degree is a filtering mechanism. Universities are academic places as PP have said, not employee factories. Graduates from prestigious universities have many more networking opportunities, on-campus recruitment, alumni network etc so they are pretty clued in with what needs to be done to pass the gruelling rounds of interviews and show leadership skills.

Someone who has gotten an apprenticeship with a prestigious company has ALREADY demonstrated all of that, whether it is a degree apprenticeship or otherwise. Degree ticks a box, otherwise they can do one part-time but either way they have already won the prestige stakes.

I can't say the same for rubbish apprenticeships that only want cheap labour.