Oxbridge: Blatant social engineering - not admission according to potential.

[Marchesman]

Despite resistance from some tutors, Cambridge University’s Access and Participation Plan 2020-21 to 2024-25 includes a target to increase the proportion of UK state sector students that is entirely separate and independent of aims for POLAR4 quintiles 1 and 2. Formulating admissions targets for the University of Cambridge’s Access and Participation Plan (2020-21 to 2024-25) | Cambridge Admissions Office

The university's own research in 2011 had "found no statistically significant differences in performance by school type, and there was no evidence of the phenomenon observed at other UK universities of state sector students outperforming their privately educated peers" https://www.cao.cam.ac.uk/sites/www.cao.cam.ac.uk/files/ar_gp_school_performance.pdf Subsequent data shows that students from independent schools performed better in examinations than students from state schools by 2015/16, at a level that is highly statistically significant: https://www.informationhub.admin.cam.ac.uk/university-profile/ug-examination-results/archive

Therefore, APP 2020-21 to 2024-25 makes no attempt to justify the state school target on the basis of student performance. In fact the only justification given is: "We recognise that school type is not a characteristic used by the OfS or contained within its Access and Participation dataset; we recognise too that the state versus independent binary masks a range of educational experiences…[however] each of the under-represented groups identified within this Plan appear in far greater numbers in state maintained schools, as do students from low income households who are not identified by any of the measures currently available to us."

The result of this can be seen in https://www.cao.cam.ac.uk/files/attainment_outcomes.pdf

In final degree examinations: "The per cent mark remained lower for the three secondary school types: • Comprehensive (estimate = -0.70, SE = 0.19, t = -3.63, p< 0.001); • State grammar (estimate = -0.98, SE = 0.19, t = -5.22, p< 0.001); • State other (estimate = -0.87, SE = 0.20, t = -4.32, p< 0.001)" To put this into context, these are the figures for students with "cognitive or learning difficulties (estimate = -0.88, SE = 0.33, t = -2.67, p< 0.01)"

Regarding the acquisition of a First: "The probability of the outcome remained lower for the three secondary school types: • Comprehensive (coefficient = -0.20, SE = 0.06, z = -3.13, p< 0.01); • State grammar (coefficient = -0.30, SE = 0.06, z = -4.81, p< 0.001); • State other (coefficient = -0.24, SE = 0.07, z = -3.57, p< 0.001)"

Selection according to potential? Really?

Perhpas you didn't quite understand the paper that you were quoting @Marchesman . Significant findings for the relationship between school type and final degree were only at the univariate level - this relationship disappeared once other factors were taken into account. So this data does not provide support for the argument that you are hoping to make.

Wrong. They want the outliers. The 1 or 2 exceptional kids from each school who never used to bother applying because Oxbridge was not something they were encouraged to aspire to. They want these kids INSTEAD of the clever but not exceptional kids from schools who do aspire to Oxbridge. They can't afford not to try to reach all that untapped potential.

@Marchesman You've not answered my question. You’re just making the same point regarding underperforming state school pupils.

In your opinion why isnt there a corresponding increase in suitable candidates from state school?
Why are state school pupils underperforming? Why does this gap exist?

bloody hell, check your superiority complex!

H. Chowdry, C. Crawford, L. Dearden, et al. "Widening participation in higher education: analysis using linked administrative data," J. R. Statist. Soc. A 176/2 (2013), 440.

Do you think that it's likely that a 10 year old study looking at 15 year old data accurately reflects the current position given how school fees have risen compared to earnings?

@QuietLieDown

You are mistaken. You may have looked no further than 'good honours' in the multivariate regression analysis. School type remains significant for exam marks and firsts.

And again ... what do you think causes this? @Marchesman

What factors are influencing this? No point in quoting statistics without any deeper critical thinking.

@SoTedious

Do you think that it's likely that a 10 year old study looking at 15 year old data accurately reflects the current position given how school fees have risen compared to earnings?

Well, in 2014 at ISC schools, 5391 children paid no fees. That figure was 7815 in 2022.

So what do you think?

Marchesman twenty four hours ago I asked:

a) What you meant by independent schools producing 'better people'?
b) Did your eldest stay at his northern comp until Y13?
c) What years are your youngest two currently in?

You've been prolific on the thread since then but another poster pointed out that you're not listening, just barrelling through making not good points, and you're also not answering most of the questions asked of you. Not sure that you'd cut it at modern day Oxford.

Could you possibly answer my three very basic questions? Cheers.

@Rummikub

You asked: "Why do you believe that state school pupils don’t do as well as private school pupils at Oxbridge? What could the answer be?" And I told you.

Outcomes will only be the same when state educated applicants and privately educated applicants are presented with equally rigorous entrance requirements.

I don't think @Marchesman has any intention of answering your questions @goodbyestranger.

There are none so blind as those who will not see.

To believe that, you would have to subscribe to the totally misguided notion that private schooling confers absolutely no advantage to achieving entrance requirements and so the bar should be set at exactly the same point in absolute terms for both state and privately educated students. I don't think you do believe that at all though or why would you have invested so much in private schooling?

Outcomes will only be the same when state educated applicants and privately educated applicants are presented with equally rigorous entrance requirements.

@Marchesman This is meaningless. All you’re trying to do is to keep the elitist position for those that can pay. Why would you want to do this?

Dl you believe that if you put private school pupils into a state school that they would do equally well if they’d stayed in private school?

@goodbyestranger

As I recall, your principle contribution has been to applaud demonstrable unfairness, so in your place I would have refrained from making cracks about anyone else not cutting it intellectually. As for questions, few have been asked, more often than not what I have said has been ignored in favour of something more ideological.

I took your first question to be provocative and your second and third personal and of no relevance to the discussion.

I will however answer the first. I can't see my post without losing the above so I don't know exactly what I said, but the setup of good independent schools particularly boarding prep and senior schools is conducive to instilling desirable social qualities such as tolerance, kindness, respect, politeness etc because of the length of time pupils spend together. Competitive daily sports teach resilience, coping with success and failure, bravery, persistence and the virtues of training. Pupils learn to be responsible from an early age and to exercise good judgement. A good mix of positive male role models is on hand, often with military backgrounds, unlike in the state sector where most teachers are female. Even relative maniacs turn into well adjusted human beings. Kipling's "If" sets the tone.

@BramleyBear

Prior attainment strongly predicts performance in degree examinations. There is no escaping this, even for students from UK state schools.

So presumably the fact that Oxbridge don't make contextual offers should set your mind at ease in that respect. Your judgement seems somewhat clouded by your own very strange and outdated ideology. As for that previous post (referencing Kipling) and male military role models, just wow.

Obviously prior attainment predicts performance, as you have less far to go to achieve your First. That would be why you have less potential when you “only” get a 2:1 compared to the student who got a 2:1 or 1st from a lower starting point…

@Marchesman - at what point did private schools start to teach these fine qualities in their students? Was this after Boris Johnson’s time, or is he an example of the type to which you refer? Or should we blame the parents?

@BramleyBear

Oxford takes state educated applicants with lower GCSE results. That looks rather contextual to me.

@BramleyBear

Do you actually know any military officers with teaching qualifications?

Demonstrable unfairness is spending four times more on the education of one child than another and then claiming the child who has benefited from all the extra funding has more potential than the other, and the other child should know their place and stay in it.

It's pretty simple. GCSEs are contextualised to take into account the context in which they were achieved. Surely it is obvious that 10 9s at GCSE is not nearly so impressive if they were achieved in a school where that is the norm as opposed to in a school where the average grade is 4or 5. However, more significantly, Oxbridge offers are standard so DC have to achieve top grades in A-Levels to take up their place.

@BramleyBear
So presumably the fact that Oxbridge don't make contextual offers should set your mind at ease in that respect. Your judgement seems somewhat clouded by your own very strange and outdated ideology.
@BramleyBear
It's pretty simple. GCSEs are contextualised to take into account the context in which they were achieved.

Once the clouds depart from your own cranium, perhaps try again?

The problem is not clouds in my cranium but seems to be your inability to grasp basic facts.

GCSEs are indeed contextualised before interview selection but any ensuing offers after interview are at standard offer level i.e. Oxbridge do not make contextual offers. So a candidate from a state school will need to meet the same A Level grade requirements as a candidate from an independent school. Conversely, other universities like Bristol make offers with adjusted A level grade requirements for contextual students.

@Marchesman

How would you ensure that bright state pupils get a fair chance at these elite HEIs?

Do you believe that if you put private school pupils into a state school then they would do as well as if they’d stayed in private school?

Beautifully put, @Walkaround Thank you.