Oxbridge: Blatant social engineering - not admission according to potential.

[Marchesman]

Despite resistance from some tutors, Cambridge University’s Access and Participation Plan 2020-21 to 2024-25 includes a target to increase the proportion of UK state sector students that is entirely separate and independent of aims for POLAR4 quintiles 1 and 2. Formulating admissions targets for the University of Cambridge’s Access and Participation Plan (2020-21 to 2024-25) | Cambridge Admissions Office

The university's own research in 2011 had "found no statistically significant differences in performance by school type, and there was no evidence of the phenomenon observed at other UK universities of state sector students outperforming their privately educated peers" https://www.cao.cam.ac.uk/sites/www.cao.cam.ac.uk/files/ar_gp_school_performance.pdf Subsequent data shows that students from independent schools performed better in examinations than students from state schools by 2015/16, at a level that is highly statistically significant: https://www.informationhub.admin.cam.ac.uk/university-profile/ug-examination-results/archive

Therefore, APP 2020-21 to 2024-25 makes no attempt to justify the state school target on the basis of student performance. In fact the only justification given is: "We recognise that school type is not a characteristic used by the OfS or contained within its Access and Participation dataset; we recognise too that the state versus independent binary masks a range of educational experiences…[however] each of the under-represented groups identified within this Plan appear in far greater numbers in state maintained schools, as do students from low income households who are not identified by any of the measures currently available to us."

The result of this can be seen in https://www.cao.cam.ac.uk/files/attainment_outcomes.pdf

In final degree examinations: "The per cent mark remained lower for the three secondary school types: • Comprehensive (estimate = -0.70, SE = 0.19, t = -3.63, p< 0.001); • State grammar (estimate = -0.98, SE = 0.19, t = -5.22, p< 0.001); • State other (estimate = -0.87, SE = 0.20, t = -4.32, p< 0.001)" To put this into context, these are the figures for students with "cognitive or learning difficulties (estimate = -0.88, SE = 0.33, t = -2.67, p< 0.01)"

Regarding the acquisition of a First: "The probability of the outcome remained lower for the three secondary school types: • Comprehensive (coefficient = -0.20, SE = 0.06, z = -3.13, p< 0.01); • State grammar (coefficient = -0.30, SE = 0.06, z = -4.81, p< 0.001); • State other (coefficient = -0.24, SE = 0.07, z = -3.57, p< 0.001)"

Selection according to potential? Really?

I reckon I could rote learn quite a few translations between the ages of 13 and 16 😉

I did not raise the issue of ab initio classics

You absolutely did, by referring to the proposal for 'dumbing down' the Oxford Classics Mods syllabus. And the proposal is 100% powered by the attainment gap between the ab initio (state school) undergrads and the 'initiated' (independent school) undergrads. There is a real issue about financial advantage trumping innate ability here, given the respective intakes (generalisation alert).

I'm just wondering if the whiny graduate quoted is BoJo. Whiny graduate in question seems to be railing about how easy it is for everyone else but him - classic BoJo .(pun intended). And BoJo apparently still thinks it deranged that he wasn't awarded a First. So, two and two....

No idea if poor people were allowed to do Classics at Oxford when BoJo was there however.

This level of envy and hatred of people you know nothing about is completely disproportionate. Children do not choose the amount that their education costs, that decision is still left to parents to spend their own after tax income on their own children. You may approve the choices of others or not, but some spend on private education and some have eight children. Everyone else just had to accept it.

Don't be absurd oddandelsewhere. I can't think that I've ever, on any post, written anything that could suggest that I'm the slightest bit envious of those who've chosen to educate in the independent sector. Nor did I make any conscious choice about eight children as it happens (leaving aside your rather intrusive - and curious - suggestion that I chose quantity of children over quality of education). My family have been astonishingly lucky to live where they did and have an excellent school on their doorstep. Pure chance and no downshifting. I also had them home every night - the idea of boarding is horrendous to me. So no, not the slightest teeniest shred of envy. Gratitude, definitely, that the cards fell as they did. My DC couldn't have improved on their education and they all enjoyed it - a massive plus.

As for hatred, get away with the hyperbole! I just can't be doing with moaning. This graduate is a moaning Minnie. All he's saying is how easy everyone but him had it. Either because he didn't get the class of degree or the ranking he wanted, or felt entitled to, or because he did get the class of degree and ranking he wanted but still wants to let everyone know how incredibly impressive he is. Well, it isn't a good look and it's especially bad when the guy in question comes from an incredibly privileged place educationally speaking. Honestly, whichever way his degree went he needs to understand a little more about life in general. That will serve him far better than being boorish about how much cleverer he is than all his contemporaries.

@oddandelsewhere - it’s not “envy” to be happy with the status quo. It is not @goodbyestranger who is unhappy with Oxford or Cambridge’s admissions arrangements, after all. Are you therefore referring to the “envy” of an undergraduate who thinks others are being given an easy ride?

At worst, @goodbyestranger is imputing envy where in fact the graduate in question is actually proud to be doing something he thinks is more interesting and enjoyably challenging, and he is not at all bothered that it may be harder for him to get a good degree result out of it.

I assume an undergraduate whose parents paid for private school may tell him or her that they invested heavily in their education and that therefore, there would now be e.g. no house deposit of insert [250]k or whatever absurd sum private education could cost these days. So if an undergraduate then witnesses others who went to state school but their parents saved the money and hand it out at uni level/for house deposits, they may feel jealousy - if it transpires that not only do such other persons get to pocket the cash, they get in more readily etc. If @Marchesman is to be believed and there are a whole lot of middle class rich undergrads from state schools floating around Oxbridge these days…
DCs cousins are at some of the top private schools in the country. They work really hard not just academically but also extra-curricularly. If my grammar DC end up doing better with regard to uni admissions and getting the cash, I can understand that some may be jealous. Especially if they did not have the very happiest time at school, some do, some don’t. Some work incredibly hard in the top private schools.

Well yes that's the worst reasonable reading of my response to the quoted piece Walkaround but it's not the correct one :) I'm firmly of the view that this graduate is defending himself or bigging himself up and belittling his peers to that end. There's a stark difference in attainment between state school students and independent school students on the Oxford Classics course, where they are measured equally. The accepted view among tutors seems to be that the state school kids have it tougher, not easier, and that that is the cause of the gap, and has led to this proposal which is causing controversy.

I see it as mirroring the OPs argument about degree classifications generally and independent school students having inherently more potential. The Classics issue at Oxford is a case in point, because the attainment gap is absolutely not about raw ability or potential but purely about educational offer and the catch up required on this particular course. The graduate in question is very dismissive: If they don't catch up with IA candidates, it really is their own fault. Well, I'd be interested to see how this smarty pants would fare if roles were reversed. His language indicates his attitude, hence not giving him the benefit of any doubt.

JustanothermagicMonday1 in my DCs' experience the people being bought houses in London are exactly that same rich set from Oxford who went to independent schools. It's a nice premise that all the state schoolers at Oxford have parents or a parent with a spare £250k per child but it's also a false one.

I should add that many of these independent school graduates are close friends with my DCs from uni. Oxford is an excellent melting pot. Intelligence is a great leveller and the overwhelming majority of young people from all the various sectors seem to be capable of getting on without division. There may be a few who turn their noses up and stay with their old school friends, but that seems to be a tiny minority - and the loss is theirs.

Apologies. I should have said today's Oxford - my DCs' experience of it. Obviously there are lots of older Oxford graduates on this thread.

I never encountered any undesirable attitudes in tutorials or socially, or in any of the clubs or societies that I was actively involved in. I had an absolutely brilliant time that I will never forget, and made fabulous, lifelong friends from all over the UK (except Scotland - didn’t meet many Scots) and around the world. I didn’t try to join the Oxford Union committee or anything like that, though, and didn’t hang around there for long if I attended any of the visiting speaker events! The Union certainly had a poisonous reputation during my time there, but it did invite interesting people in to talk, so was well worth ignoring any dominant personality types and attitudes for the opportunity occasionally to hear some fascinating people talk - and then to scoot off again before being asked where I went to school 🤣. I don’t think I stood out as being “different,” though - no strong, regional accent, not lacking in confidence in my right to be there, etc. So far as I was concerned, if I had been offered a place, it was because I merited it, but no more or less than anyone else there. So I wasn’t as likely to notice as others might have been.

I don't think there is endemic unfairness against comprehensives, free school meals pupils, state grammar people and the very academic and the not so academic private schools. In general those who are very good can have a punt at Oxbridge if they want to try and plenty who are good enough won't get in as ever. I just want to want to make sure we keep an eye out for any massive change that could be illegal or very unfair on teenagers who don't choose their schools or families but tend to work very hard to get good results, from all sectors.

On the parents who paid fees saying we have less for XYZ, it will just vary per family. My sons have friends who moved the whole family from India to be near a child at a private day school where mine went - that is a lot of pressure on one son. Others like mine - I and they didn't try Oxbridge and didn't pay fees so they could go to Oxbridge and I have helped all 5 graduate without student or other loans and helped them buy a first property so it wasn't one or the other. Other families won't be able even to make minimum loan up to maximum never mind help with a property. Also the ethos and expectation and norms of families different hugely which is just as well as I like to live in a UK where people can be very different from each other. I think ours from my parents was we paid for your education and now it is up to you and that is pretty much my view with mine - I genuinely don't mind what they do, part time work, join a convent, work at a bar in Thailand etc. That might seem extremely unlikely and a lie given I am a lawyer and 2 are lawyers too and two are trainee lawyers but it is so....

Xenia what credit do you give the old grammar system for the upward social mobility in your family? Do you think they would have been a route out of poverty without that system having been in place?

There is a multi layered unfairness as stated previously on this thread.
it’s not a level playing field by a long way.

*they would have had

Not at all surprised, @Xenia. Children often follow their parents into jobs and professions simply because they understand more about their parents’ lives and careers than anyone else’s, so feel more confident about heading in that direction, regardless of whether or not their parents offer them useful contacts. It’s either that, or avoid touching it with a bargepole. This might just as easily happen if your parents are builders, plumbers, chefs, actors, engineers, pilots, or electricians as doctors, nurses or lawyers.

@Walkaround - DH is a doctor - he made 100% sure DC’s didn’t want to be one. Luckily they listened to him.

Public school intake may well be decreasing at Oxbridge - however, when you look at the schools the international students come from it will very often be the likes of Harrow School Hong Kong, or Dulwich College Singapore etc etc. So the same schools, but the overseas versions.

@Parker231 - exactly. Either follow their parents, or don’t touch it with a bargepole, as I said. I note Xenia’s ex-dh is a teacher and none of his children appear to have followed that path…

I do take your well-made point about familiarity @Walkaround, but I'd feel slightly disappointed if any of my 3 did the same as me or DH, personally – I'd like to think we have raised them to think for themselves, and I can't imagine why they would all, independently, come to the conclusion that they were best suited to follow in one of our paths.

thing47 I've never been left in any doubt that all eight of my DC think for themselves. I'm not sure I can claim any credit for 'raising' them that way. They just do it. Three have gone into law (although very distinct areas from one another). I would say that they did that despite me rather than because of me - I'm not sure it shows any lack of independence at all. I guess if a DC has to rely on a parent to get a foot in the door, that would be different, but it would be a bit restrictive to criticise a DC for lack of independent thinking if they chose a path previously trodden by a parent. There's a fair chance that a DC's mind might be wired in a particular way in any event, and that wiring might lend itself to a particular field. DD4 is currently being taught Classics at Oxford by a fellow of All Souls whose father won a Nobel Prize for a science - have to say hats off all round there :)

@thing47 - I wouldn’t mind one way or the other. Someone capable of thinking for themselves knows they have a better understanding of the advantages and disadvantages of their parents’ chosen careers than a career in a completely different field. Fwiw, neither I nor my siblings followed their parents’ careers, nor did my parents follow their parents, so no long history to follow from. Besides, my parents were always saying their profession wasn’t what it used to be… A friend who thinks for herself eventually ignored her parents trying to put her off following a similar path, because having tried something different for a while, she decided she didn’t care what her parents thought about their career, she still wanted to follow that path, anyway!