Meet the Other Phone. Only the apps you allow.

Meet the Other Phone.
Only the apps you allow.

Buy now

Please or to access all these features

Higher education

Talk to other parents whose children are preparing for university on our Higher Education forum.

Oxbridge: Blatant social engineering - not admission according to potential.

878 replies

Marchesman · 02/06/2023 14:02

Despite resistance from some tutors, Cambridge University’s Access and Participation Plan 2020-21 to 2024-25 includes a target to increase the proportion of UK state sector students that is entirely separate and independent of aims for POLAR4 quintiles 1 and 2. Formulating admissions targets for the University of Cambridge’s Access and Participation Plan (2020-21 to 2024-25) | Cambridge Admissions Office

The university's own research in 2011 had "found no statistically significant differences in performance by school type, and there was no evidence of the phenomenon observed at other UK universities of state sector students outperforming their privately educated peers" https://www.cao.cam.ac.uk/sites/www.cao.cam.ac.uk/files/ar_gp_school_performance.pdf Subsequent data shows that students from independent schools performed better in examinations than students from state schools by 2015/16, at a level that is highly statistically significant: https://www.informationhub.admin.cam.ac.uk/university-profile/ug-examination-results/archive

Therefore, APP 2020-21 to 2024-25 makes no attempt to justify the state school target on the basis of student performance. In fact the only justification given is: "We recognise that school type is not a characteristic used by the OfS or contained within its Access and Participation dataset; we recognise too that the state versus independent binary masks a range of educational experiences…[however] each of the under-represented groups identified within this Plan appear in far greater numbers in state maintained schools, as do students from low income households who are not identified by any of the measures currently available to us."

The result of this can be seen in https://www.cao.cam.ac.uk/files/attainment_outcomes.pdf

In final degree examinations: "The per cent mark remained lower for the three secondary school types: • Comprehensive (estimate = -0.70, SE = 0.19, t = -3.63, p< 0.001); • State grammar (estimate = -0.98, SE = 0.19, t = -5.22, p< 0.001); • State other (estimate = -0.87, SE = 0.20, t = -4.32, p< 0.001)" To put this into context, these are the figures for students with "cognitive or learning difficulties (estimate = -0.88, SE = 0.33, t = -2.67, p< 0.01)"

Regarding the acquisition of a First: "The probability of the outcome remained lower for the three secondary school types: • Comprehensive (coefficient = -0.20, SE = 0.06, z = -3.13, p< 0.01); • State grammar (coefficient = -0.30, SE = 0.06, z = -4.81, p< 0.001); • State other (coefficient = -0.24, SE = 0.07, z = -3.57, p< 0.001)"

Selection according to potential? Really?

https://www.cao.cam.ac.uk/admissions-research/formulating-admissions-targets-for-APP-2020-21-2024-25

OP posts:
Thread gallery
39
BramleyBear · 06/06/2023 23:06

Ah youshould have done an AIBU and put voting on OP

Another 'Walkaround - Dix points, Marchesman - Nul points' from me 😂

goodbyestranger · 06/06/2023 23:07

Oh :( I wanted you to be agog.

Marchesman · 06/06/2023 23:07

goodbyestranger · Today 23:03
Also, I am not middle class, so does my assessment count for more?

Sorry silly me, no one is anymore, are they?

OP posts:
Marchesman · 06/06/2023 23:09

@BramleyBear

I don't know how to. Would you be so kind?

OP posts:
goodbyestranger · 06/06/2023 23:09

Is it nil points or nul? Probably nul :(

goodbyestranger · 06/06/2023 23:10

Oh I've googled. It is nul. There you go then.

Walkaround · 06/06/2023 23:35

Marchesman · 06/06/2023 23:00

@Walkaround

The lack of self awareness in your comments is astonishing. First you blame poor people for lacking motivation, and then you non-specifically blame rich people - for existing presumably.

On reflection that probably summarises the middle class consensus. It is hardly surprising that state education is a disaster. I am agog to see if people agree with you on this thread.

@Marchesman - your lack of self-awareness is astonishing. You veer from arguing that the state sector has reached saturation point when it comes to finding people with the potential to get into Oxbridge, to claiming it is actually still full of people with the potential but they are being held back by the middle classes, to claiming public schools can provide all the poor people to Cambridge that it needs who actually merit the places, to claiming it’s too late before a child even reaches the age of 3 to make up for the effects of poverty because there is already a massive divide (caused by middle class choice of schools, before the child is even of school age?!). Your argument is all over the place. Also, you don’t address where the middle classes should go to school, as you both argue that they can’t afford private school and are peevish about that, and that they are selfishly using the state sector.

Marchesman · 07/06/2023 00:02

@Walkaround
You veer from arguing that the state sector has reached saturation point when it comes to finding people with the potential to get into Oxbridge, to claiming it is actually still full of people with the potential but they are being held back by the middle classes, to claiming public schools can provide all the poor people to Cambridge that it needs who actually merit the places, to claiming it’s too late before a child even reaches the age of 3 to make up for the effects of poverty because there is already a massive divide (caused by middle class choice of schools, before the child is even of school age?!). Your argument is all over the place. Also, you don’t address where the middle classes should go to school, as you both argue that they can’t afford private school and are peevish about that, and that they are selfishly using the state sector.

From this, I feel that perhaps I ought to accept that I was wrong about self awareness. The issue may relate to basic comprehension - unless you can find where I wrote these things.

OP posts:
Walkaround · 07/06/2023 03:38

@Marchesman
“I think most who educate their children privately expect that they will face some discrimination but they do it because the outcome that they want is that it will make them better people.” [better by what definition?]

“intelligence and attainment correlate strongly with SES and the distribution curve for socioeconomic status shifts to the right in the independent school cohort. Although this is not as extreme as some people commenting here believe - in independent schools 35% are from the top quintile (i.e. overrepresented but less than twofold). Two-thirds of the attainment advantage of independent school pupils is attributable to pupil characteristics not schooling. Put simply, on average they are brighter from the start, unpalatable as that may be to anyone with a bigoted turn of mind.” [so on average, pupils in higher performing state schools where you believe parents have gamed the system are actually brighter from the start]

“Essentially it is due to the increase in admissions from state schools without a corresponding increase in suitable applicants. If you look at archived "undergraduate examination results by school type" you will find the turning point, before which students from state schools outperformed those from independent schools.” [so you think Cambridge has already identified all suitable state school applicants - so why the need for outreach of any sort, or are you using that as a straw man?]

“the setup of good independent schools particularly boarding prep and senior schools is conducive to instilling desirable social qualities such as tolerance, kindness, respect, politeness etc because of the length of time pupils spend together. Competitive daily sports teach resilience, coping with success and failure, bravery, persistence and the virtues of training. Pupils learn to be responsible from an early age and to exercise good judgement. A good mix of positive male role models is on hand, often with military backgrounds, unlike in the state sector where most teachers are female. Even relative maniacs turn into well adjusted human beings. Kipling's "If" sets the tone.” [evidence that even relative maniacs turn into well adjusted human beings if they go to a boarding school?! In what way are you not showing clear bias and attributing all sorts of wholly unevidenced benefits here?]

“@drawingmaps
state school students are somehow inherently inferior

And I said this where?
I went to a state school, my father went to a state school, two of my grandparents went to state schools, and so did one of my children.

Why on earth would I think that?” [But you said earlier that they are, on average, less intelligent - and presumably also are less likely to become “better people,” due to their lack of a public boarding school education- and that by age 18 they mostly have less potential than their public school educated peers, unless from a similar background]

“Don't bother. 96% of privately educated children don't go to Oxford or Cambridge and 95% don't care. It is an obsession more or less unique to the sort of people who game the state sector - the parents of more than 120,000 high SES pupils at the point of HE entry who largely hog the places in socially selective state schools, schools that would be the natural habitat of low SES pupils in an equitable system. Private schools are just a distraction that allows them to get away with it.” [or a reason for doing it, as they can’t afford to make their children “better people”, so settle for more academically successful as their only escape from being left behind like other state educated children? Or maybe the schools aren’t actually “better,” but by your reasoning simply contain a higher proportion of children who were “brighter from the start” and have attitudes and aspirations more similar to those of the privately educated, due to their more closely aligned socioeconomic backgrounds and expectations?]

“Not only is the disparity greater but there are many more high SES pupils in the state sector than in the private sector - by a factor of about seven. They compete directly for resources, not indirectly like their private counterparts.” [so you don’t think a direct competition for resources, or acquisitiveness, resulted in the wealth that enables some to afford private school in the first place, then?]

“By the age of 3 there is already a large gap in cognitive test scores between children in the lowest socioeconomic quintile and other children, but this gap widens as they progress through the education system. A strong link exists between the education levels of parents and the achievements of their children, in part genetic and part behavioural, however the widening achievement gap between the ages of 11 and 14 in England is accounted for almost entirely by the fact that children from degree educated parents are far more likely to attend high performing secondary schools and so benefit from a positive school effect.” [whether private or state]

We have a system in which whoever can afford to live near to the good school has a much higher chance of getting in. But the location of the best comprehensive schools in the most affluent areas incompletely explains social segregation in schools, the underrepresentation of disadvantaged pupils in the best of them is also due to schools admitting lower rates of disadvantaged pupils than live in their catchment areas.” [but are those schools genuinely “better” and not just getting an easy ride from an easier cohort to deal with and support?]

“Private schools are a complete irrelevance to anyone but the pushy middle class who can't afford them. They make effectively no difference to very low SES pupils (apart from those who actually make up the 2% or so who get a free ride through private schools). “ [So where are the pushy middle class meant to go to school? State boarding schools in deprived areas? Non-existent private schools that are affordable for the pushy middle classes but somehow don’t have a direct effect on those left behind in state education? Or is the problem actually the way the whole of British society is set up, with schools just a symptom of that, and the wealthy all arguing that they personally don’t make a difference to anything, especially if they are paying school fees to make their children better people with more potential than state school students?].

JustanothermagicMonday1 · 07/06/2023 08:09

“Or is the problem actually the way the whole of British society is set up, with schools just a symptom of that, and the wealthy all arguing that they personally don’t make a difference to anything, especially if they are paying school fees to make their children better people with more potential than state school students?].”

From where I am sitting (in the chattering middle class…), there appears to be a cultural war as well as a full on brewing crisis across the whole education sector.
Best quality early childcare unaffordable for many (where research shows that the impact is actually quite big in terms of future outcome), state primary (least affected overall, except where certain classes in certain schools are struggling massively due to additional needs not being met by professionals which really should not be a normal class teacher’s remit), secondary education (here is where there are just so many options which massively differ across regions and catchments and the landscape can be pretty confusing even for the savvy fluently English speaking parent), followed now what appears to be a Higher Education sector in full crisis mode too (funding crisis plugged by hiring of ever more foreign students and an admissions crisis imposed by government currently more at the very top level - but who knows what is going to happen there in the future).

We now have also got a whole private education sector in what appears to be full on panic mode due to a non distinct Labour Party pledge as regards charitable status/VAT etc. and spiralling costs - which in many cases, private schools have also brought on themselves due to the flirting over many years with non essential frills and a crazy marketing machine.

As someone who grew up in different countries due to parents’ moving around due to their jobs, it is unlike anything I have encountered elsewhere. The politicisation of education to this level in the media and by politicians at every turn. The constant meddling in curriculums, the teachers and higher education staff strikes etc.
As far as I am concerned, educational establishments have their own microcosm and should be left alone by government and be properly funded and supported by local authorities (in a ring fenced non political way in case the political outlook of the council changes over time). Deprived communities should be given extra cash and attention for all poor children and free after school club and breakfast clubs with actual sporting and outdoor activities. All SEN children need to be properly supported in schools that bring the best out of them, if that is their parents’ choice.

As regards Higher Education and given direct experience with the cultural outlook of much of Asia, I would also like to highlight that the richer overseas student does come for the company of certain British types, whether people would like to admit that or not. So if they are to bank on the overseas student at the top levels, a balance will need to be found. Otherwise, the US and the elite institutions in other parts of the world will be gaining traction. The private sector education recruitment market at private school and uni level adapts very quickly and that needs to be considered carefully.

JustanothermagicMonday1 · 07/06/2023 09:33

I think what I am trying to say is that the UK university education brand, as viewed globally, is something we really need to understand and protect because we are so dependent on the fees paid by overseas students now. It is a huge market and we are already seeing other countries increasingly offer higher education programmes in English and so we need to be aware that there is competition out there.
And if your staff is striking and not marking examinations, outsource it efficiently and quickly!

Look at this for example, https://studyinginswitzerland.com/english-universities-switzerland/

User27680416 · 07/06/2023 09:40

@goodbyestranger "Also, I am not middle class, so does my assessment count for more?"
As this thread seems to hate the middle classes, I'm interested to know what you would define as middle class?

JustanothermagicMonday1 · 07/06/2023 09:46

The notion of “middle class” is now irrelevant when we discuss tertiary education. You need to define middle class internationally.

JustanothermagicMonday1 · 07/06/2023 10:47

https://www.universitiesuk.ac.uk/latest/news/international-students-boost-uk-economy

https://www.theguardian.com/education/2023/may/16/international-students-boosted-uk-economy-by-42bn-in-20212-study

Here are some of the articles - we are selling the UK university international middle class dream. And apparently, we need to be selling that.

EmpressoftheMundane · 07/06/2023 11:09

Education as an export vs education as a societal requirement for our own people are two different but interlocking conversations.

Are you saying @JustanothermagicMonday1 that elite universities in the UK need to keep the portion of their domestic students “elite” in order to meet foreign student expectations?

I have two thoughts:

  1. DD from a very academic private London day school did not get into Oxbridge, her best friend did. Best friend commented that she was not making the connections and the network that she expected to. It’s just a bunch of regular kids at Oxbridge. 😂 (Best friend’s expectations would have been very high coming from a wealthy, well connected international family. No doubt her presence is fulfilling the fantasies of some of her classmates!)
  2. I went to a well regarded European university myself. The courses were in English, the student group was very international, and the social makeup of the locals on the course was irrelevant to me, and all the other international students. We were as interested in each other as we were in the locals, who were a minority.
goodbyestranger · 07/06/2023 11:29

No doubt her presence is fulfilling the fantasies of some of her classmates!

Well I very much doubt it!

JustanothermagicMonday1 · 07/06/2023 11:37

“I went to a well regarded European university myself. The courses were in English, the student group was very international, and the social makeup of the locals on the course was irrelevant to me, and all the other international students. We were as interested in each other as we were in the locals, who were a minority.”

So that course operated as a de facto international private school?

So we are OK with the concept that Rishi Sunak’s daughter won’t get into Oxford because she went to Wycombe Abbey. However, she would have gotten in if she had gone to the best school in Mumbai? Because she is rich she needs to pay up, one way or another. Anyway, who cares, she will go to Harvard. She will be fine anyway. Because that is where the true international rich & powerful now meet? At Harvard, Yale or Stanford etc?

So as long as Oxford and Cambridge attract the right international sort (a few celebs here and there in the relevant target countries, but not Rishi Sunak’s daughter) all will be well, because the middle class Chinese and Indians will still sell their souls to send their kids to universities in the UK? (And it is the smaller unis that really need this market) Because that is what is happening - people take loans in those countries to meet a UK uni aspiration etc. It isn’t just the domain of the international rich? Or is it? Are we tricking those persons taking loans? Is it a modern form of colonialism, the colonialism of human capital? I am really confused why this is acceptable from a left viewed form of politics?

DollyParkin · 07/06/2023 11:49

we are selling the UK university international middle class dream. And apparently, we need to be selling that.

Well, it's subsidising your DCs' degrees.

Xenia · 07/06/2023 11:56

I don't think justanother we need to worry too much. It is only the "just about managing" people who cannot quite or just might afford school fees for whom those are the problems. If instead we and our children can ensure we go for better paid work then the problems disappear - you can just ensure on all fronts the children are provided with good childcare/education/care etc.

The 20% VAT on school fees (or more likely some kind of annual turnover tax that was imposed on the energy sector) will mean fee paying schools may increase fees but they also may be able to claim more VAT back and may be allowed to stop helping children of the less well off so there are pros and cons to the move.

Most undergraduates on first degrees for 18 year olds wihch my children did at Bristol etc were a group of British students, not those from abroad, although some London universities might be different and certainly at post grad it differs.

Marchesman · 07/06/2023 12:05

@User27680416
@goodbyestranger"Also, I am not middle class, so does my assessment count for more?"
As this thread seems to hate the middle classes, I'm interested to know what you would define as middle class?

I guess this question is aimed at goodbyestranger. But for what I meant when I wrote chattering middle class, Wikipedia (of which I am not a great fan) serves in this instance:
"Members of the middle class are often politically and socially engaged (a Mori poll in 2005 found 70% of grades AB voted at the 2005 general election compared to 54% of grades DE). Education is greatly valued by the middle classes: they will make every effort to ensure their children get offered a place at university; they may send their children to a private school, employ a home tutor for out of school hours so their child learns at a faster rate, or go to great lengths to get their children enrolled into good state or selective grammar schools; such as moving house into the catchment area."
Chattering being self explanatory.
And for an unfathomable reason here is a lovely picture of Tony Blair.

2005 United Kingdom general election - Wikipedia

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2005_United_Kingdom_general_election

OP posts:
Parker231 · 07/06/2023 12:20

Xenia · 07/06/2023 11:56

I don't think justanother we need to worry too much. It is only the "just about managing" people who cannot quite or just might afford school fees for whom those are the problems. If instead we and our children can ensure we go for better paid work then the problems disappear - you can just ensure on all fronts the children are provided with good childcare/education/care etc.

The 20% VAT on school fees (or more likely some kind of annual turnover tax that was imposed on the energy sector) will mean fee paying schools may increase fees but they also may be able to claim more VAT back and may be allowed to stop helping children of the less well off so there are pros and cons to the move.

Most undergraduates on first degrees for 18 year olds wihch my children did at Bristol etc were a group of British students, not those from abroad, although some London universities might be different and certainly at post grad it differs.

What about those who don’t have the higher paid jobs - are their children not entitled to high quality childcare and education?

JustanothermagicMonday1 · 07/06/2023 12:22

“InternationalisationThe UK’s higher education system, with its steep hierarchy of ‘elite’ (usually aligned with ‘ancient’ or ‘research-led’) universities at the top, and newer universities supposedly further down, is also relatively unusual internationally. In most countries, it works more like schools – people tend to go to their local institution, unless perhaps they are studying a particular subject that somewhere else specialises in.
Britain’s system has its pros and cons – I won’t go into them here – but what it does mean is that its supposedly elite universities have always been massively overrepresented towards the top of international league tables.
Those who advocate market competition tend to argue that it allows the strong to ‘rise’ while the weak sink. But the reality is that some of the supposedly best universities seem to be doing worse, too.
There are three main international league tables. In each of them, three fewer English universities made the top 100 in the 2022 rankings than did in 2010. There were between ten and fifteen ‘top global universities’ in England before the Tories came in. Now, there are between seven and 12.
This ‘elite’ status is also part of UK higher education’s financial strategy. The government doesn’t need to fund universities, the argument goes, if they can attract international students willing to pay vast fees, and if they can attract international research funding. And to some extent, some of them can.
But largely, international research funding pots meant the EU. And where the UK used to be the second most popular global destination for international students, after the US, it has now been overtaken by Australia, with Canada the fastest growing, according to pre-pandemic statistics.
Partly, this is because international students have been dragged into the moral panic about migration, and the Home Office has made life harder and harder for universities hosting them. In the latest round, home secretary Suella Braverman recently suggested that international students who hadn’t got a ‘skilled job’ within six months of graduation would be deported.
And it’s not just British nationalism that threatens this funding model. A large part of the new strategy relies on ever-expanding demand from the children of Chinese elites. But Xi’s own turn towards nationalism means that foreign education no longer has the importance it used to in the officialdom of the Chinese state. And in any case, China’s own universities are growing in prestige.”

https://www.ucu.org.uk/media/12532/UK-higher-education---a-workforce-in-crisis/pdf/UK_HE_Report_24_Mar22.pdf

https://www.opendemocracy.net/en/ucu-strike-university-higher-education-unite-unison-tuition-fees/

JustanothermagicMonday1 · 07/06/2023 12:25

“we are selling the UK university international middle class dream. And apparently, we need to be selling that.

Well, it's subsidising your DCs' degrees.”

Reading into this further, I doubt this scheme will work for much longer.

Marchesman · 07/06/2023 12:32

@JustanothermagicMonday1
We now have also got a whole private education sector in what appears to be full on panic mode due to a non distinct Labour Party pledge as regards charitable status/VAT etc. and spiralling costs.

About 25% of private schools don't have charitable status and survive perfectly well. Those that do tend to be larger, with other current or potential income streams, and spend on bursaries and scholarships as much as they save from charitable status (hence the reason for weaker institutions avoiding the whole thing).

Logically there would probably be a small contraction in the sector if Labour had its way when scholarships and bursaries are withdrawn to balance the books, at least until foreign income takes up the slack, but on the whole the sector would simply become more socially selective. I don't think that is what private schools want, but to characterise this as being in full on panic mode is not correct. Once Sir Starmer and his pals work out the catastrophic consequences for the state sector it is no more likely to happen under the next Labour govt. than under previous ones.

OP posts:
JustanothermagicMonday1 · 07/06/2023 12:53

@Marchesman - I thought the Labour policy would in reality be coupled with a huge recruitment drive of teachers back into the state sector, with suitable incentives. It is about recruitment more than anything else?

“At least until foreign income takes up the slack” - this is a very limited part of the private sector - boarding schools? Or do you mean appealing to foreign born parents living in the UK? Because that is increasingly the market in London for day schools.

Rather selfishly, I am more worried about tertiary education https://www.theguardian.com/education/2023/may/31/funding-model-for-uk-higher-education-is-broken-say-university-vcs

Leaving the EU seems to increasingly be translating into “going US Style” across so many sectors and spheres of life. Deplorable. Culturally and historically though I suppose it makes sense.

Swipe left for the next trending thread