Post grad Int'l Dev or Law??

[Jux]

DD's got a place on the Law Conversion Course at Exeter, but is also interested in the International Development Masters.

Is anyone there who can tell me about careers in ID, I know v little and what it's like to work in, how you claw your way up the greasy pole etc? How hard it is to get into and succeed in.

As for Law, I know the course will involve a lot of learning of Case Law (DD's like a sponge that just absorbs facts so would be work but work that comes fairly naturally to her). She'd want to go int Int'l Human Rights Law ultimately. So, as for ID, can anyone tell me more about how hard that is to get into and succeed in?

What sort of salaries are you likely to look at after say 10 years? (That's a q onmy own behalf, I think if she's happy in what she does that's most important).

Any info you can give on either of these career paths would be very welcome.
Thank you.

@Jux DD did GDL conversion in London after MFL degree and is now a barrister. I know she felt barrister pupilage in a human rights set is like finding a tooth in a hen. Very few DC ever get them as it’s niche.

I think your DD needs to work out who she might want to work for. She should start looking now. So how do the human rights solicitors recruit? Who are the leading ones? What are they looking for? Would she prefer to be a barrister?

i would say the law conversion is more job focussed than a masters but none of it will be about human rights. DD found next to nothing was about family law which is a much bigger sector. So she must get mini pupillages or placements if she’s not done these already. Knowing about your sector of law is important. Try CAB and similar charities too. DD did this whilst doing GDL.

I am not sure a masters helps. Law wants law qualifications. Plus some experience. From what I can see anyway. She should also be flexible. So few get to be human rights lawyers. Not sure about pay! Too much pro bono and it’s not much £. Lawyers always make money from rich clients!

@Jux The other comment I should have added is that networking in law is important. If she wants to be a human rights barrister it’s vital. So not sure about Exeter.

Thank you Tizzero, I'll send her to this thread. If she has any more questions, would you mind if I asked you?

I beg your pardon, TizerorTiger, got your name right this time?!

@Jux Please ask away.

TerrorFizz (I'm so sorry, no idea I'm having so much trouble)

Thank you.
Her first question:
Would a masters in ID still qualify me to work in humanitarian disaster work at places like the UN?

I am going to get your hame right if it kills me!

TizerorFizz!
She's the Real Biz
She's a proper Wiz;
Truth teller she is
For my dd's quiz.

Appallingly bad poem, forgive me 🍰have cake instead

In terms of voluntary work I’d also suggest organisations that work with asylum seekers.

Splendid idea Rummikub

For ID, suggest she looks at programmes like the World Bank’s Young Professionals or similar programmes at the UN, to give her a sense of what qualifications and experience she’d need. Although I’d caveat that these are extremely extremely competitive, especially if you’re from a large rich country like the U.K. (they set quotas for different countries.) roles like this pay well, are often exempt from tax, and should be interesting if a bit bureaucratic.

if she’s interested in working for a charity doing humanitarian relief or ID, I’d say that’s very rewarding but pays very little (look at glassdoor) and also requires an extensive time commitment IN the countries in question and a willingness to pick up and move regularly. Ask her if she thinks she’ll still want to do that when she’s 30, 35, 40, etc

@Jux DD studied in Geneva. It’s the destination of many tri-lingual Swiss students. It’s hard to get a job there I believe. All Swiss students have a masters. However few British students have multiple languages.

I think your DD needs to work out which career she actually wants. I can assure her, that if it’s law, doing more then the GDL is vital. She has to be actively involved. Also loads of DC have masters in all sorts of ID and get nowhere much. Or, as described above, with not much pay. Either way, you have to decide which route. Aid working is easy enough to get into. Human rights law, much more difficult.

I meant to say UN in Geneva is the destination of many Swiss students. As are the other NGOs there.

My DD was interested in ID and looked at the International Disaster Management and Humanitarian response course at Manchester University.

This book might interest your DD and yourself. It is a fascinating read:

https://www.amazon.co.uk/When-Dust-Settles-Stories-Disaster/dp/1529358248

Lucy Easthope featured in many podcasts last year. She is fantastic to listen to. She studied law before going into disaster management.
https://podcasts.apple.com/gb/podcast/45-lucy-easthope/id1562362641?i=1000557097920

I would be careful of putting anyone on a pedestal and thinking you can be the same as them. Clearly the disaster charities have roles. That’s not quite the same as human rights law. It’s important to make informed choices and be realistic. Volunteering for a charity at least gives an idea of the work and certainly for one working with asylum seekers.

For human rights barrister, DD needs mini pupilages at human rights chambers. They are very competitive.

With the new routes into law via the SQE a law conversion isn’t always required. Many big law firms pick their students whilst they are still undergraduates then pay for any further training.

Are you aware of the human rights course at Stirling? www.stir.ac.uk/courses/pg-taught/human-rights-and-diplomacy/

@PettsWoodParadise Big law firms do that. Human rights isn’t a city law specialism. That’s why the DD needs to investigate the best route and what firms do this work. Barristers will get involved but I’m not sure about solicitors so it needs investigating. It’s quite late to be thinking about it now. Definitely look at relevant charities.

Bindmans and Leigh Day spring to mind as human rights solicitors. Maybe check out their recruitment policy?

In my view she should change her course at Exeter from the law conversion to "law conversion with SQE" if she might be a solicitor (and if she needs a masters student loan for that then it will be the law conversion with SQE including masters whilst she applies to law firms). P Students will have already been applying by the way during their degree to law firms for vacation schemes and training contracts, even those students who did not do law at university so she will probably need a gap year as law firms recruit years ahead.

If she went to Bindmans it looks like from a quick look here that they may not sponsor (pay for) the law conversion etc in the same way as bigger firms and might want her to work as a paralegal for them first but they may pay for the SQE exam . https://www.bindmans.com/careers/students-and-graduates/

Leigh Day has some information https://www.chambersstudent.co.uk/leigh-day/true-picture/247/1

(Those two firms T also mentions above are the two I think of from this area too)

For solicitors there is a new complex system to qualify where most better firms want the law conversion (or LLB) plus SQE1 and 2 exams passed first but in theory now an LLB or law conversion is not needed to qualify - just SQE1 and 2 plus the 2 years of a training contract (or some other 2 years of giving legal advice).

I am a solicitor as are two of my children and 2 others are trainee solicitors.

I don't know about international development.

On page for lawyers it varies. It is usually not that hard to find out as bigger firms publish the pay during the 2 year training contract and newly qualified 1 and 2 and 3 year qualified pay and profits per equity partner may be public too. I don't think she should limit herself to human rights law just yet until she has started studying law and had a chance to choose what area.

I’ve recruited lots of law graduates into law associates support roles who kept training and paying for their own learning with law qualifications when those who were successful had already been picked. Sorry, just saying it like I’ve experienced. It may be different in lower tier law firms or high street. Also not familiar with Chambers. Please be careful before spending a lot of money on a legal post-grad and as others have suggested look at law firm recruitment paths.

i can’t comment on the international development routes as I don’t have experience there other than trainee solicitors who did pro bono seats (common in city law firms) going into work at international charities including those in the Human Rights sphere and social finance (water and education projects in developing countries) and Green bonds etc.

Should read law associated and not associates!

Development and humanitarianism is really difficult to get in to. It’s not my field, but I work alongside it. The majority of successful development professionals I know have a specific trade/experience/qualification that they’ve bought in. So education, water, logistics (this one is huge and what I’d love to do!), community fundraising, medical, etc etc. Experience trumps qualifications - has she done any internships or anything?

Human rights legal roles are incredibly rare, as has already been said. And generally not well paid. However a lot of law firms encourage pro bono work and if she is lucky she might be able to do some of this in the human rights field.

I don't know much about working in international development beyond Rory Stewart talking about it on The Rest is Politics. He obviously had army and political careers before going into it. He seems to spend a lot of time travelling, which you would expect.

@eurochick Pro bono is fine if your legal career is already going places and you are already on a well paid ladder. It’s seen as career development if it’s a prominent case. Unfortunately it’s unpaid so you need the paid work too.

Many city law firms have pro bono training seats or secondments to high profile charities which are paid as part of the training contract. Of course there is rarely the guarantee of getting the seat or secondment of choice so not a good route if that is definitely the path you want to tread.