Do lecturers earn more in USA unis? Kids applying to USA know they have a 'place'

[Peverellshire]

Talking to friends whose kids are applying to the USA.

It occurs to me that our system sucks. They have the practical certainty of knowing where they're landing. In USA I see schools have end of term parties whereby everyone goes in with the flag of the Uni they are going to.

Could we implement a similar system in the UK? I think we need a revamp.

Actually, OP, right now I sadly think the answer is ‘yes’. But that is because UK universities are underfunded and have been for some time. During this time, when the new fees structure was introduced, a lot of money was badly prioritised. The American way isn’t intrinsically superior, but it is different.

And Americans not attending their own state university system (many states actually have two uni systems, eg U Cal and Cal State, U Illinois and Illinois State) pay stratospheric fees.

I think University education is very much a product in the US and often they are selling a whole lifestyle rather than just an education.
My eldest really wanted to the US college experience that she saw on TV and went to the US from a state school in Ireland. It really has lived up to her expectations.
She is the work hard, play hard type and is doing lots of both.

The USA system favours the rich and sharp elbowed even more than the U.K. tutors, extra curricular, professional coaching etc help even more when there's no final exams

@gogohmm There are final exams, my DD’s been taking them and she’s got more next week!

it’s just a different system.

@myveryownelectrickitten 's mention of busywork reminds me of my year abroad studying at an American uni that's ranked similar to UCL & Imperial in international rankings. I took some 200 & 300 level courses (so roughly, 2nd/3rd year) on Latin American politics & economics, and one of our tests was to identify the different South American countries and capitals on a map! And that was worth something like 10-20% of our final grade.

It was good as an exchange student though. Easy assessments meant lots of time for socialising and enjoying the living abroad experience.

@Phphion A belated thank you for your generous post. Next year is job market year for DS. I will only hear snippets, but understand that there is strong competition amongst new PhDs for entry level academic jobs and that his search will be worldwide, with some countries considered and others not.

I would obviously love him to build his career in the UK, but it seems to be about getting the right sort of job.

I'm not sure I understand the connection between your title about lecturers' salaries & levels of pay, and the admissions processes in each country.

The admissions processes are different. They're differently organised university/college systems.

And as PP have said, it's not lecturers who control the admissions process in the UK. UCAS does - it's a centralised system. In the US, there is no centralised agency. Intending students generally have to make separate applications for each college.

Does all this not mean that you are likely to get a better experience and education at a 'top' USA university re: your subject than a UK equivalent?

Not necessarily. I find Junior year US students are often a bit behind our 2nd years, but they all catch up in the end.

It really depends on the combination of college, course, and student.

“One thing top universities are increasingly doing is 'promising' staff appointed at Assistant Professor level that they will be promoted quickly to Associate Professor by placing a time limit on how long someone can remain at Assistant Professor level “

@Phphion , could you explain these job titles, please? I only know the old Lecturer, Senior Lecturer, Reader and one-word-I-can’t-remember beginning with A (not Adjunct).

This Wikipedia article doesn’t really help, except to give me the idea that it depends on the university.

Lecturer, Senior Lecturer, Reader and one-word-I-can’t-remember beginning with A (not Adjunct).

Warwick uses the US nomenclature:
Lecturer = Assistant Professor
Senior Lecturer = Associate Professor
Reader can either be Associate Professor or Professor

My place uses
Lecturer
Senior Lecturer
Associate Professor
Professor

Also Teaching Fellow/Senior Teaching Fellow for people on teaching-only contracts

Thank you , @DollyParkin

You're welcome @Fridaytomorrow

But I'm still confused about the OP's connection of admissions processes and lecturers' salaries? Could you explain, @Peverellshire ?

Yes, as @DollyParkin says, when we changed to using the US titles it went:

• Research Assistant, Teaching Assistant - unchanged
• Research Fellow, Teaching Fellow - unchanged
• Lecturer to Assistant Professor (optionally Senior Research Fellows and Senior Teaching Fellows could choose to become Assistant Professor (Research focussed) or (Teaching focussed) if they wanted)
• Senior Lecturer to Associate Professor (optionally Principal Research and Principal Teaching Fellows could choose to become Associate Professors)
• Reader - unchanged
• Professor - unchanged

@Needmoresleep Going on the job market in the US is so much work. I do not envy your DS at all!

For the UK, people trying to enter academia now are trying at quite a good point (in so far as any point is a good point). A lot of the more research-focussed departments are currently in the period where they can look more for potential in people who they can grow for the REF, rather than recruiting for quick wins. If I can offer any advice, feel free to PM.

I too do not understand the connection between academic salaries and the admissions process. In my experience, US colleges have a lot more people employed solely to do admissions, but they are mostly not academics and in any case this is irrelevant to the timing of admissions or the student experience once someone is admitted.

I agree wrt the underfunding. Lots of American universities have endowments valued in billions of dollars, and many more have endowments valued in hundreds of millions. Only Oxford and Cambridge come close to American levels of endowment value, and it's only very recently that the various constituent colleges of these universities have come around to seeing the utility of a common endowment fund as opposed to individual kitties. US universities are light years ahead of UK universities when it comes to fundraising and investment.

However, it's not true that attending an out of state state university means you'll pay stratospheric fees.

States who are neighbours sometimes have reciprocal agreements where students get preferential rates. Not in-state rates but not the highest rate either.

And all universities will consider financial aid for students below a certain family income level. You won't get 100% of demonstrated need in an out-of-state state university, but you can get substantial financial aid all the same.

Not always the case - there are very few US colleges and universities that don't use the Common App. It's a system that is very useful if you're applying to any of the 918 universities that use it. There can be additional essay requirements for different schools alongside the essays and questions posted in the app - students need to be on the ball.

The beauty of the Common App is that you only need to submit items that all of your choices require once, and your references can upload their letters of recommendation directly.

Professors / department heads don't participate in the admissions process in the US either. The process is accomplished by admissions officers.

@Needmoresleep

Wrt the GPA system -
Yes, a high (or perfect) GPA indicates a really consistent all-rounder

But students who demonstrate that they have gradually got their act together over the four years of high school are very attractive to many universities. Finishing strong can make a difference.

In addition, American students can take their courses at different levels, with honours level courses accorded a higher weighting than less challenging courses. This means a student could end up with a GPA that is higher than 4.0. Students who have got As in every subject in every semester but whose courses are not at honours level will have a maximum GPA of 4.0.

Universities also take into account the general caliber of the high school, what courses are offered, and at what level. A rural high school in deepest Arkansas (for instance) might not offer a wide range of mathematics or history or English courses, whereas a high school in a suburban area of Chicago will. Admissions officers in many colleges will dig deep into context, and reward students who have taken full advantage of every opportunity their high school offers.

Thanks, @mathanxiety I did not know about the reciprocity agreements. I should have mentioned the financial aid, which can be quite generous. I have done do on other threads and thank you for doing so here

Yes adding my thanks @mathanxiety for your detail on US admissions. I’ve taught in the US, but had nothing to do with admissions and didn’t have DC going through the system.