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Higher education

Talk to other parents whose children are preparing for university on our Higher Education forum.

Do lecturers earn more in USA unis? Kids applying to USA know they have a 'place'

43 replies

Peverellshire · 14/05/2023 14:33

Talking to friends whose kids are applying to the USA.

It occurs to me that our system sucks. They have the practical certainty of knowing where they're landing. In USA I see schools have end of term parties whereby everyone goes in with the flag of the Uni they are going to.

Could we implement a similar system in the UK? I think we need a revamp.

OP posts:
Looksgood · 14/05/2023 15:29

Pay stretches from much lower to much higher.

It's not lecturers who delay decisions in the UK though. It's the fact that A levels happen at the end of our students' time at school.

American kids take SATs earlier and can build up credits to qualify for university bit by bit. They also rely on very expensive extra curricular activities to stand out.

I don't think our system is great but I think it's a bit fairer than in the USA. Not lecturers' fault anyway!

yoga4meinthemorning · 14/05/2023 15:35

Most Scottish 6th years know where they are going by this time.

Why not advocate for the English to ditch a levels and use the Scottish higher system?

Looksgood · 14/05/2023 15:46

Lots of UK students know where they are going too - mature students, people with certain BTECs, access routes etc. The system and lecturers are fine with this. It's just about how school qualifications are timed.

Polis · 14/05/2023 15:50

What has lecturers’ pay got to do with admissions?

unfortunateevents · 14/05/2023 16:02

Polis · 14/05/2023 15:50

What has lecturers’ pay got to do with admissions?

I'm also struggling to know what lecturers' pay in US universities has to do with the system of admissions or the fact that US kids have parties where they declare for their chosen university. Unless we completely overhaul the exam system in the UK there is no way for students to know where they will be attending university before they finish school or college.

Chemenger · 14/05/2023 16:06

My DD’s school (Scotland) put leaver’s ’ destinations in the programme at prize day. Almost all of them had definite places at university. It’s the English A level system that is the problem, not the universities, and it is nothing at all to do with lecturers’ salaries- how could it be?

inverness123 · 14/05/2023 16:08

Yes, this is about how the school system works, not the uni system. It’s actually a nightmare in unis as we have to move so quickly to sort out spaces once the results are out and have no idea about numbers until the start of semester. A US-style approach would be so much easier!

inverness123 · 14/05/2023 16:10

Re pay - once you are established you are paid significantly more in US institutions as they have so much money, but there’s a lot more exploitation of more junior workers than we have (though we’re catching up!) and life can be very uncertain with low wages for a long time. You also get paid a lot more in rich institutions and for in-demand subjects, where as here we have agreed pay scales so everyone gets paid the same no matter where you are and what you teach.

BackToWhereItAllBegan · 14/05/2023 16:13

Most US kids get their University offers between Christmas and the end of March so the pressure is then off and they can really enjoy their last couple of months of school.
The universities do get sent a copy of the kids final transcript (all their grades from High school) but unless they've almost completely failed their classes between Christmas and the summer then their places are not at risk.
(Although DS has a friend with a Harvard offer who has already received an email saying the B they have in one class needs to improve!)

poetryandwine · 14/05/2023 16:36

Agree with @Whoarethegrownups regarding the system of pay in America.

The American admissions process hugely favours pupils who can afford extracurriculars. Also, in the absence of required state or national high stakes exams, the assessments used are vulnerable to pressures from sharp elbowed parents and LEAs from prosperous areas.

A post qualification admissions process would be more efficient and less stressful. Admissions tutors know it could be done, albeit at some inconvenience all around. If we don’t want that, perhaps we could offer fee reductions to those who sign up for a year of National Service between school and uni? Others could do a gap year. Most Year 1’s would benefit from growing up.

I am a former admissions tutor in a technical STEM area and have always fought the argument that our students will lose their maths in a gap year. Not if they’ve learnt it properly.

Needmoresleep · 15/05/2023 08:37

@poetryandwine I tend to agree having observed quite a number of affluent American and other expats head for US universities. The most organised moms have their kids start prepping their personal statements in primary school. I kid you not. Research trips to Africa aged 10, personal triathlon coach aged 9. (It worked. Both girls ended up at HYP even though neither were obvious academic superstars.) Some of the weekend schedules were astonishing. Music, additional languages, sport, academic tutoring, produced veritable Renaissance children. But in the longer term neither the most interesting nor the most talented. SAT preparation seemed to start three years in advance.

One weird thing about the US system is the apparent need to maintain your grade point average throughout high school which seems to benefit the slogger, including those who slogging is supported by tutors. Less scope for the late developer. That teen whose interest is sparked only when maths and chemistry syllabi become more challenging and thus more interesting and who delivers better results at A level than at GCSE.

@Whoarethegrownups Is this true “You also get paid a lot more in rich institutions and for in-demand subjects, where as here we have agreed pay scales so everyone gets paid the same no matter where you are and what you teach.”. My understanding was that there is scope for market adjustment so that UK institutions can compete to hire world class academics and researchers. One example is economics where mathematical economists are hired not just by universities but also by governments, central banks, consultancies, think tanks, and investment banks.

inverness123 · 15/05/2023 09:11

@Needmoresleep at professorial level, salaries are negotiated and not subject to pay scales, so if you want to employ someone very senior there’s scope for paying what you want. But at lower levels you can’t do this.

Needmoresleep · 15/05/2023 09:26

Interesting. How do London Universities like LSE, UCL and Imperial manage to recruit staff for in demand areas like say nano technology or econometrics? They will want to recruit top quality young academics to maintain their ability to attract top students and to deliver high quality research, yet the cost of living in London is high. Is it via splitting teaching and research and an ability to fund the research from other sources.

poetryandwine · 15/05/2023 13:35

It is a problem,@Needmoresleep unless the appointment is a professorship. There is a London supplement but it isn’t much

Peverellshire · 15/05/2023 13:38

Does all this not mean that you are likely to get a better experience and education at a 'top' USA university re: your subject than a UK equivalent? Costs aside, for a moment.

OP posts:
Lcb123 · 15/05/2023 13:39

Or maybe all those leaving school can celebrate equally, regardless of whether they are going to uni or not, or which uni. Seems very elitist. And no idea why lecturer pay matters.

HamBone · 15/05/2023 13:47

Yes, your high school reports and GPA are very important when applying to American universities, especially your final two years. My DD is going to uni there and she received her offers a while back, it’s a relief that she knows where she’s going. They always say that you have to maintain your grades to the end though.

What I like about American universities is the flexibility. She’s studying engineering, but she doesn’t need to pick the exact branch yet (civil, environmental, mechanical, etc.) as they all begin with same base classes. She could also switch majors completely if she wishes.

What I don’t like it the cost. American universities are extortionate compared with British ones-yes, you receive merit and need-based aid and scholarships, but I don’t think anywhere should be charging $60-80K a year to anyone, even v. wealthy people, it’s ridiculous.

lakesummer · 15/05/2023 13:49

yoga4meinthemorning · 14/05/2023 15:35

Most Scottish 6th years know where they are going by this time.

Why not advocate for the English to ditch a levels and use the Scottish higher system?

This was my first thought.

The USA system is more like the Scottish one ( although it doesn't have universal exams). The downside in both systems is that the last year of school is a little flat and the work rate definitely drops off.

I'm a Scot who works in the USA with dc so have noticed the similarities and differences.

Peverellshire · 15/05/2023 13:51

lakesummer · 15/05/2023 13:49

This was my first thought.

The USA system is more like the Scottish one ( although it doesn't have universal exams). The downside in both systems is that the last year of school is a little flat and the work rate definitely drops off.

I'm a Scot who works in the USA with dc so have noticed the similarities and differences.

I'd happy trade that for all the stress and anxiety inducing uncertainty, otherwise.

OP posts:
titchy · 15/05/2023 13:53

Peverellshire · 15/05/2023 13:38

Does all this not mean that you are likely to get a better experience and education at a 'top' USA university re: your subject than a UK equivalent? Costs aside, for a moment.

I'm not sure why a school system based on continuous assessment would mean the university experience would be better than in a country where the school system is based on end of stage performance? Why would there be a correlation?

Is Harvard going to give a better education and experience than Oxford? Maybe for some, maybe not for others. Again the correlation wouldn't be to lecturer salary. More likely to endowment income.

lakesummer · 15/05/2023 13:54

I think it's less stressful.
The downside to the USA system as others have said is the constant pressure to keep grades up in your transcript ( basically your report card grades) from the age of 14.
The extra curriculum push I think is quite a good idea as it means that life isn't just studying.

titchy · 15/05/2023 13:55

I'd happy trade that for all the stress and anxiety inducing uncertainty, otherwise.

Horses for courses though isn't it. Many students would regard the US system of continual assessment as years of stress and anxiety, whereas the English system is just a few months of stress and anxiety.

Phphion · 15/05/2023 13:57

@Needmoresleep London universities like LSE, UCL and Imperial manage to recruit staff because people from all over the world really want to work for them (and because similarly prestigious universities like Oxford and Cambridge are similarly not in cheap areas and don't attract the London weighting). In truth, there are some specialisms that it is more difficult to recruit for, but not so difficult that you couldn't find plenty of people who are good enough in the global market in which you are recruiting.

All staff in all subjects at all universities (except the private ones probably), whether Research and Teaching, Research only or Teaching only, are on the same national pay scale. Names of job titles and grades can be different, but there is supposed to be role parity (although most people would agree that there is not). Research income makes no difference. Individual academics don't get to keep their research income as part of their salary. If you bring in more research income, relative to expectations, you may use it as part of a case to be promoted faster, but that is all. The only way you can pay research staff more (or indeed less, which can be a particular issue for less experienced staff) is if they are not employed as academics, so for example, if you employ them as researchers in a spin-off company owned by the university. Then they are not part of the academic pay scale.

In reality, if you are afraid someone you really want to appoint might be lured away by competitor institutions or the private sector you can try to make a case for them to be appointed at one of the higher spinal points within their grade but you can only do that based on their existing experience, not just because you really want them or because they might be employed somewhere else, and you have to have agreement from the university. If you really want them you might try a bit harder to make a case, but all departments have budgets. This wouldn't result in a big increase in salary, but it is something.

The other thing you can do is to help people get promoted quickly. Although there are a certain number of spinal points within a grade and you normally progress by one spinal point a year until you reach the top of the grade and can progress no more unless you are promoted, you can be promoted to the next grade from any spinal point in the lower grade, you don't have to wait until you reach the top. Promotions are ultimately decided at the university, rather than the departmental, level and usually have somewhat clear evidence that must be presented to show you should be promoted and you can't get someone promoted if they can't demonstrate they essentially meet the criteria, no matter how much you are worried they might leave.

At some universities you can try to 'force' a promotion by getting an offer of employment at another university that has been deemed a peer or competitor university to your own, but offers of employment at a non-peer university or outside academia would usually not be considered and having an offer is no guarantee that your own university would decide to promote you to try and keep you. Some universities refuse to engage with this anyway, as people, moreso people trying to get promoted to Professor, were abusing the system by getting basically fake offers from their friends at other universities.

One thing top universities are increasingly doing is 'promising' staff appointed at Assistant Professor level that they will be promoted quickly to Associate Professor by placing a time limit on how long someone can remain at Assistant Professor level (somewhat similar to the tenure process in the US). In reality, this is actually a fairly brutal process that is not just designed to promote good people quickly but also to weed out people who aren't meeting your standards, because if you don't meet the criteria to be promoted within the required time-frame your contract will be terminated. Ambitious people don't generally see this down-side though and just see it as a guarantee they will be promoted quickly.

MrsCarson · 15/05/2023 14:03

My oldest son got his uni offers in the US in February along with the financial breakdown of each uni, so they can make an informed choice. Worked out cheaper for Ds to go to a private uni instead of State, as he was given grants from the Uni itself that weren't available from State. All my US friends are posting picks of their kids with choice posters too and already had senior Prom.
Dd (my youngest) is doing Uni here in UK and still has A levels to do.

myveryownelectrickitten · 15/05/2023 14:03

Peverellshire · 15/05/2023 13:38

Does all this not mean that you are likely to get a better experience and education at a 'top' USA university re: your subject than a UK equivalent? Costs aside, for a moment.

Not necessarily - in the US you are much more likely to be taught by adjuncts and/or teaching assistants, and to do a lot more “busywork” and continual assessment (multiple choice tests/pop quizzes/short papers etc.)

The main difference is in the style of degree - four years and a lot of mixed minor/elective courses before majoring in the US; three years of more specialised work in the U.K. Some subjects, like law or medicine, are only done as graduate degrees in the US, so you would need to do a four year bachelor’s degree first in pre-med or another subject.

It’s a different style of teaching and learning: broader spread versus depth specialisation. Some students going to the US from this U.K. school system will find it a bit dumbed-down and at a lower academic level than they are used to; others may welcome the chance to take a broader curriculum of different subjects. A student would generally have a lot more continuous testing and less depth work in the US: more contact time, but less of it with senior academics. In the U.K., the exam/coursework load and contact time very much varies with institution. Exams are usually blind marked in the U.K.; whereas in the US the end of semester grade is at the discretion of the prof and his/her TAs.

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