State school outperforming Independent school students at Uni

[LippyPongStocking]

So this is old news- research from Cambridge in 2015:

https://www.cambridgeassessment.org.uk/news/state-school-pupils-do-better-at-university-cambridge-assessment-research-confirms/

Has this trend continued? And now are recruiters finding that state school students make better employees, as the workplace is more reflective of of a state school environment (as the independent school child is used to far more support and handholding)?

Exactly @thing47 when you say "Perhaps they couldn't afford all the books?"

When I was at school I sometimes couldn't do the homework set as I didn't have the textbook as it was shared between multiple pupils. For history one boy who was in our group lost the particular text for that term and then we didn't even have it in class let alone for homework. My Dad tried to buy the odd book to make up for it but we didn't have a bottomless pit and my bag often got pilfered from so I couldn't even take anything of remote value into school. I got a job as early as I could at 14 and a fair bit of what I earned went on books but it really wasn't a level playing field. I spent a lot of time in the public library (school had turned library into a computer room the year I started at the school). I hope that most schools now don't have experiences where books are in short supply.

I didn't know private schools existed until I went to university and had odd conversations (mentioned up thread about) where people asked where I had been to school and people looked perplexed as I had a very plummy accent that didn't seem to compute with some people that I came from a very working class background and both my parents left with a 'leaving school certificate' and nothing more.

DD is at a grammar and the parents fund a fair bit of stuff like text books and it has less issues with recruitment of teachers than some of the comprehensives. Ofsted even noted what a superb difference the library made to the learning experience. DD has had a brilliant experience compared to mine.

DD's communications from her (hopeful) college at Cambridge have been amazing and for those with minimal funds there are book grants, subsidised rent, means tested grants (of thousands of pounds a year) and tons more. I do think resources like this help even out any disparities whether the student has been on a bursary at a private school or been

...at a low performing state school

Hit submit too soon!

It’s also not a fact that DC from private schools are “spoon fed” and lacking resilience. It’s just a narrative spun up by people with a point of view.

We should all quit doing it.

Data shows no difference between private and state schools in university performance. The original post was quoting transposed data which has since been corrected. Data also shows that class sizes don’t make a difference within reasonable limits.

@Margrethe 'within reasonable limits' is the crux though and 30+ of mixed ability has to be beyond reasonable limits. If class size doesn't matter why is it cited so often to underpin decisions to privately educate?

We’ve been talking about 6th form students. Earlier data showed that their average class size is 11. Probably below optimum.

Actually @Margrethe is correct, class size isn't as big a factor as a lot of people think it is, certainly at secondary level. Research has repeatedly shown that a good teacher and a supportive (towards education, that is) home environment are much bigger factors, closely followed by peer group pressure/expectation. In fact, DCs do better in a large class with a great teacher than in a small class with a poor one (and no, no one in my circle of family or friends is a teacher 😀).

To answer your question @ThePossibilitiesAreEndless I can't say for certain, and I'm not aware of any study which has looked into this, but professionally speaking I am a bit out of date! I suspect it might be because it's a logical belief – more attention from a teacher, more time to ask questions, easier to go back over things which haven't made sense the first time, smaller range of ability in the class, that sort of thing. Seems reasonable, but nevertheless it's not what the data shows.

My daughter was privately educated in a very selective girls day school. She is now teaching at a comprehensive (sixth formers only).

Based on her, admittedly very limited experience, she would reject the suggestion that independent pupils are spoon-fed. She says that she does a lot more spoon-feeding of her students than she ever received herself. The ability range is much wider in her current school, as you'd expect of a comprehensive. She has some extremely bright pupils and some who are really struggling.

In general, class sizes are not dissimilar. I suspect that the average class sizes in independent schools are skewed by some outliers. For example last year in my children's old school only 2 students took music A level (out of about 100 in the year) and only 3 took German. In all, 8 A level subjects had 5 or fewer students. I doubt whether many state schools would have been able to offer those subjects with such small numbers.

That said, ime private schools do help their pupils more than comprehensives do. I wouldn't describe it as 'spoon feeding' but there is definitely a greater emphasis on making sure all the pupils understand a topic/concept/equation before moving on. And they tend to get more help outside lessons too. All 3 of my best friends have or had DCs in private schools – I am neither critical nor jealous, remarkably they are still my best friends.

The study quoted got the figures the wrong way round, but there is robust data to back up the fact that state-educated pupils do better at university than privately-educated pupils with the same A level grades (that last clause is often omitted from newspaper stories, but as often the case, the devil is in the details).

@thing47 state school students don’t do better than private school students when the grades achieved are As or A*s.

The data shared only showed a difference of 80% to 83% at lower grades achieved. It’s a slim margin.

I am neither critical nor jealous, remarkably they are still my best friends.

Thing if you are neither critical nor jealous, why is it remarkable that they are still your best friends?

Can I please ask a very genuine straightforward question. If it's not about class sizes, it's not about buying any academic advantage and it's not a PLU thing and the state provision is accepted as fit for purpose, SEN aside, why do people choose private schooling? Genuinely interested.

Because our local private school is a hundred times better than our local state.

My god, does that happen?

At what point do parents accept their children are adults and let them make mistakes/struggle?

So you are clear that you were just buying advantage then @VincentVaguer. FWIW I don't have a problem at all with people doing that. I only have a problem with it when people won't admit that's what they are doing. The "Of course they would have done brilliantly anywhere but we loved the grounds and range of clubs" just gets my back up.

I only have a problem with it when people won't admit that's what they are doing.
Thepossibilities The most annoying is “oh I think private education is appalling, I really want it abolished and I’m working hard towards that end. But nonetheless I send my children to private school”.

I honestly think many people on MN have no clue what a non-selective state education at a socially mixed school is like. My DC is doing GCSEs at the local comprehensive. There is no setting at all for most subjects. So for English, the class ranges from extremely able to those who have very rudimental reading and writing skills. There are also multiple children with SEND, MH and behavioural issues. It takes a very very talented teacher to be able to deliver any sort of quality of education under those circumstances.

I'm paying for a normal decent education. The state school doesn't provide this.

Lots of uni students use tutors. Not mine tbh, but I don't see a problem with it.

Where is the state provision in your area lacking @VincentVaguer ? Again, this is not political, just a straight question.

Well, as you don't believe what I've said so far, I'm not sure why personal details will convince you?

The gcse and a level grades are low and there's a lot of trouble and disruption in the classes for starters. The private school has better teaching, grades, ethos, sports, outcomes. Enough?

Oh dear. Someone is rattled. I was only asking a general question. No interest whatsoever in your personal details.

This is quite a long question rather than a straightforward one ......"Can I please ask a very genuine straightforward question. If it's not about class sizes, it's not about buying any academic advantage and it's not a PLU thing and the state provision is accepted as fit for purpose, SEN aside, why do people choose private schooling? Genuinely interested."

For me it was a vast number of reasons but including all those in the question although not particularly class sizes.

1. I wanted the children in single sex schools - even that is rare these days in the private sector by the way. My 5 children and I did not have boyfriends or girl friends until at least university stage
2. I went to a private school from age 4 and I wanted the same for my children as it is our norm in a sense - that they had what I had.
3. I wanted them in a specific kind of single sex private school - the hardest to get into academically selective one they could get into - so not like loads of the more run of the mill easier to get into ones. In a sense I wanted a traditional grammar school peer group where everyone there is over that specific IQ level or however state grammars measure it. So not just segregation by sex (1) above, but also by IQ.
4. I wanted the parents to be committed and be paying a lot of money and often making sacrifices because education comes first and they would not tolerate their child messing around in class so in a sense buying class rooms where teachers might find it easier to maintain quiet and ability to study. My children's father is a teacher who has taught in both sectors and he would never go back to state schools.
5. I thought my children's teachers were good, tended to have degrees in their subjects and a low staff turnover so lots of stability.
6. More of a chance the teachers might vote Tory. I think I failed on that point but never mind.....
7. Most of the class in fact usually 100% of the sixth form going to good universities so if you have a weak child who follows the herd they will go where the others go as teenagers often pay more heed to friends than parents.
8. I quite like nice buildings, lakes, fields, school chapels etc. I sing almost every day at the piano and my children's fhater is an organist - there is more chance your children can sing complex music in latin in a church setting aged 8 in a private than a state primary school - this preference is very niche of course......
9. I wanted them to be in a place where they are the paying party - the school serves those who pay for it in a more direct way than a state system, as I am a free market capitalist.
10. Loads of other reasons too.

So what part of "I'm paying for a normal decent education. The state school doesn't provide this" did you not understand? I think it's pretty straightforward.

Mine at single sex state doing very well thank you nice friends we both went to state ended up lawyers and Oxbridge. Private is smoke and mirrors - waste of money.

You are lucky to live in such a good catchment area. I'm sure you'd be the first to agree that not all state schools are like yours.