State school outperforming Independent school students at Uni

[LippyPongStocking]

So this is old news- research from Cambridge in 2015:

https://www.cambridgeassessment.org.uk/news/state-school-pupils-do-better-at-university-cambridge-assessment-research-confirms/

Has this trend continued? And now are recruiters finding that state school students make better employees, as the workplace is more reflective of of a state school environment (as the independent school child is used to far more support and handholding)?

"One girl went was in the local paper and in the radio for getting two A stars and an A. If you are told you are exceptional, it's hard when you realise you're not and no fuss is made".

If you're at Cambridge, you're by definition not 'ordinary', you're 'exceptional' as a learner and part of an academic and social elite.

Normal non selective independent schools have a normal mix of children, a large majority of which have SEN, which is why they've been sent there in the first place.

So it's absolutely no surprise that normal DC in state schools can do better

@antoz. What an excellent post..... you've hit the nail on the head there.

Fwiw Cambridge (and others for all I know) have looked at applicants’ results in the context of their school average since at least the early 2000s.

They dont just apply a private/state distinction and miss the nuance of the impact of grammars.

I agree it's the spoon feeding effect. My ex went to Cambridge after a lifetime of his mum kicking him up the bum and chasing him about every piece of work he had at school, failed his first year, fell to pieces. The answer? Change course at Cambridge and get his mum to continue kicking him up the bum whilst there. 🙄
He went to a grammar school,

@bottleofwataaaaaar sounds like an issue rather than a school type problem. Depends on the grammar schools of course but top grammars achieve similar results to top independent schools with a fraction of the resources/budgets and a much higher student to teacher ratio. To do well you need to be a self starter and spoon feeding is off the menu.

Sorry meant to type sounds like an ex issue.

There aren't 30 students in most sixth form classes.

but there are in many

Where do you get your figures from or is this anecdotal evidence? According to this government report the average class size in 6th form is 11.
https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/603546/DfE_Cost_of_A_levels_Class_sizes_report.pdf

antoz, I agree.
Traditionally the universities even in the 1980s when I went if they saw an exceptional pupil from a really sink school they would make allowances for slightly lower grades and that is absolutely fine on my part. Some of the more recent contextual recruitment is a bit of a sledgehammer to crack a nut but I still don't think it is stopping top pupils at state grammars, HIlls Rd, Brampton etc and those at most selective private schools by and large getting into a top 5 university. However we just need to keep an eye on it as we do not want to move to a system where someone who works very hard at a leading state school in the SE is disadvantaged by decisions their parent made about choosing that state (or very good private) school when someone who perhaps isn't even as hard working nor bright does get in.

I am not actually sure class sizes is as simple an issue as people make out. The selective private schools at 11+ might have 24 a class but everyone there is a similar level so not mixed ability. Other private schools are different. If you get to too low a number - eg we had 2 of us doing German A level in my private school as most girls did not even go to university - you don't have the classroom competition, the bouncing of ideas etc etc. There is probably an ideal number higher than 2 for that kind of thing.

Antoz comment we have seen int he workplace too - contextual recruits who do not realise not only do you have to arrive on time every single day come hail or shine and even if you felt like a lie in, but that you might well arrive earlier than others and leave last, that you cannot be off sick all the time and that you have to do what you are told. That is absolutely not an issue with every contextual applicant for graduate work, but we certainly need a system where they are told what may seem unwritten rules at times as the workplace tends not to bend to accommodate too many differences.

well they certainty have not been into any of the schools I have taught in in the last 10 years and counted 😂

but 30 is the top of the range, as is 15 in private school, both have many classes with significantly less, but you are stil going to get class sizes in state schools of double (or more) class sizes in private schools

"Normal non selective independent schools have a normal mix of children, a large majority of which have SEN, which is why they've been sent there in the first place.

So it's absolutely no surprise that normal DC in state schools can do better"

I'm going to guess that non-selective private schools don't actually have much of a cohort consisting of low achieving children with significant EBD and learning difficulties, who come from impoverished backgrounds, with uninvolved, poorly educated parents, who form a large part of the cohort in state schools and contribute towards them being more challenging environments for teaching and learning.

I live in a very deprived area, and my kids went to the local primary school. Nearly half of the kids at my children's primary are on free school meals. I think it's hard for middle class parents on mumsnet to get their heads around the degree of challenge many poorer families are living with. Many kids from poorer families who have mental illness and learning difficulties - they sit on a CAMHS waiting list for 2 years while their children develop school phobias and additional EBD. And even once they're diagnosed there's so little meaningful support in state schools. Meanwhile the better off families I know pay for private assessments.

A whole list of super-selective grammars in London, Bucks, Essex and Kent.

To take nothing away from your general point, which is well made @antoz, but the Bucks grammar are not super-selectives, they are catchment area schools. Everyone who gets over the standardised qualifying score gets a place at one of them (albeit not necessarily your nearest).

Well said @izimbra .

"Normal non selective independent schools have a normal mix of children, a large majority of which have SEN, which is why they've been sent there in the first place.

So it's absolutely no surprise that normal DC in state schools can do better"

But the difference is that "normal non selective independent schools" have parents who (i) can afford to pay fees and (ii) are invested and interested enough in their children's education to spend that money on school fees.

Many, many children at comprehensives face huge barriers to learning, first and foremost parents/carers who cannot support them. There are lots of reasons for this, including lack of English, lack of time, the sheer exhaustion that comes with poverty, poor levels of literacy and numeracy etc etc.

My son went to a state primary in SE London and now goes to a state comprehensive in the same area, where there are a high proportion of students on FSM. It is shocking what many students have to deal with.

I agree with @Xenia ’s comments about class size. A 6th form class being too small is more of an issue than it being too big. You need a reasonable sized group to get a good class dynamic going.

I remember reading Malcolm Gladwell’s David and Goliath where he posits that the ideal class size is 18 or 24. This great for students but creates more marking work for teachers. The answer is to give teachers fewer classes with more students in each class. So 2 classes of 18, rather than 3 classes of 12.

Here is a quick reference:

https://edcentral.uk/edblog/this-week-in-edresearch/do-smaller-class-sizes-really-improve-student-outcomes-1

I believe smaller classes do show benefits for infants.

FWIW DC is at Cambridge and says that the ones who need most 'hand holding' in the first year are the ones from comps and / or non-selective private schools where they have generally not encountered much competition and have been hailed as 'exceptional' most of their lives.

I had hoped obnoxious private school students who looked down on students from 'comps' were a thing of the past. Alas, no.

Some people have too much money clearly. What a narrow mindset about what's important...

I thought exactly the same when I read that. How on earth would someone know about the competition faced by their peers at school, and whether or not they were deemed “exceptional”?

It is very wrong to say the boy is obnoxious if he states a fact, surely? I have also heard from one of my adult children of a friend whose sibling found some on the course had not read all the books of the relevant author (for English) in sixth form as private schools pupils may have been forced to do and that there was catching up to be done and/or that debating skills in seminars and bouncing ideas off each other was not necessarily as good from some of those from deprived backgrounds whoever bright they are.
However as someone said above once you get to year 3 of the degree if those admitted were bright enough (I think Gladwell says you might as well pick out of a hate once you have the brightest of the bright but only 1 in 100 can get in to that particular institution), then most things are pretty equal between different types - those from the rich London elective schools like Henrietta B and fee paying day and private schools and "ordinary" comps like we have had in Newcastle since the 1970s (no grammars there since then).

I also agree with the comment above about some parents in each sector not understand the other. My mother taught classes of 40 6 year olds after WWII in a poor area of the NE without a teaching assistant. It is completely different dealing with children from difficult homes from the kind of children at posh comp London families or state grammars or private schools.

Xenia, even you should acknowledge that it is not a 'fact,' but merely a perception informed mainly by prejudice.

It is not fact though is it, Xenia. It is just subjective observation coloured by people's own prejudices. And it goes both ways from state to private and back again. It is tedious.

Sorry X post @NoraBattysCurlers . I think we are saying the same thing.

Yes exactly. It may have been a “fact”
that kids from comps “required more handholding” than others. But the child
in question is just speculating about the reasons for that. If true it’s more likely that kids from comps start off at a massive disadvantage compared to their private school peers for a number of reasons. Instead of recognising his own privilege he’s sneeringly decided that these kids are struggling because they think they’re exceptional.

Perhaps they couldn't afford all the books? This is exactly why universities try to (and do) even out some of the inequalities experienced at school – after 3 years of equal access to staff, resources such as libraries, computers, printers, and so on the playing field is marginally more level. And thank goodness for that.