Dd distraught about first year at uni but won't help herself

[Brilop]

She says she hates her course. She started with high hopes but has had a few very low marks (47) and now doesn't think she'll finish the first year with a 2.1. The first year doesn't count for the overall grade but it's supposed to be the easiest year (although she can drop one of the modules that she did badly in). She's depressed, moody and really hard to talk to. She's contacted her tutor and heard nothing and says she's too embarrassed to ask for more feedback. She's also mentioned dyslexia and the uni are thinking of assessing her but she refuses to chase it up. Obviously there's nothing practical I can do.

I've told her that if she wants to drop out that's fine but she says she can't, she'd be too embarrassed. I've suggested changing courses but she says there's nothing she wants to do. She's now hysterical upstairs the gp has prescribed anti depressants but she's refusing to take them.

I just don't know what to suggest 😪

She may be depressed, but she knows perfectly well that a full university course will run up a huge debt. Even if she fails her degree. So if she doesn't want to be there, the sensible thing is to leave ASAP (with only a smaller debt).

Perhaps you could put that to her and see if it prompts her to have that talk with her tutor.
If all else fails, you could contact her tutor yourself and say you;re very concerned about her. This should prompt the university to act.

I have said about the debt.

I'd love to.contaxt the tutor but not sure dd will want me to. Or if they'll listen. Everyone's always saying on here that you should let your dcs sort these things out themselves

Do tell her from me that our student office hours are a barren wasteland for most of the term and we wish students would make use of them! We enjoy helping students puzzle through something and it’s how we get to know students.

I can actually write good, useful references for those very few students who spend time coming to my student office hour to talk about their work, including their struggles. I know them as people rather than as (sadly) one of the silent, anonymous faces in a seminar room. It’s funny: students think they need to be quiet to avoid being wrong, whereas what we enjoy most is being asked questions and hearing students’ views and interpretations as they are forming and to help them form them. We dislike it when students are waiting to be perfect. Academic success is all about making mistakes and learning from them. All invention and originality come from gaps, errors, misinterpretations.

I spend a lot of time working on raising students’ confidence in talking and working things out together, and my students have nominated me for teaching awards because of it. My most interesting thinkers are often neurodivergent (esp. adhd, autistic, dyslexic).
Universities are sites of experiment, error, and learning from it - and I’m a lecturer in the Arts and Humanities - it is true for us too.

We want students to make mistakes, to be shocked by how new and hard something is, and then help them work their way through it. Our students need to come to us to form these adult mentoring relationships - we won’t chase them. But we will welcome them enthusiastically to our often very empty office hours.

Just FYI my friends and we’re we’re all at RG unis between 15-6 yrs ago and our first years all counted although it was anywhere between 10% - 20% of the grade with each year weighing more and more.
The only times I heard it doesn’t weigh in RG unis is if you’re on a 4yr course.

She might be downplaying this to to you..

My ds was the same. Was always convinced he wanted to do a particular computing degree and nothing else, then absolutely hated it. He also hated where he was living and couldn't get on with the people he shared with in halls. He packed it in towards the end of the first year and felt like a failure. Nobody cared, the tutors/lecturers have seen it all before and there was nothing to feel embarrassed about. He then took a year off, came home, did a part time job, saved some money. Then he went back to uni, started a different course but still working with computers. He also found a room in a private house to rent and was much happier. He had more of an idea what to expect and had also matured during the year off. He's now in his 2nd year of his new course. He has still managed to get student finance as they are allowed to do a year then change course etc We were frightened by a family member incorrectly telling us he would have to pay all the student finance back if he left and eventually changed courses. Student finance were really helpful but each year, when calculating his finance for the next year he has to apply separately for the first years finance to be deferred and it always has been granted. So, at the end of this degree he'll owe 3 years student loan plus the portion of loan he used in the first year on the original course. He was very depressed on the other course and I sympathise with you and your daughter. The best thing he did was pack it in and look for a course similar but different to the original one (hope that makes sense). Please reassure your daughter there is a way forward and she has nothing to be embarrassed about.

Erm no. It is made quite clear on their website.

Also on a note I got 3rds and 2.2s in my first year and got a first.
University arts courses are hard with lack of structure and frankly poor quality teaching.
I do know lots of people who benefitted from dyslexia and adhd support.
Also counselling may help I used it and found it invaluable especially in first year when anxiety and imposter syndrome kicked in.
I also changed unis and started again
Best advice my dad gave me was life isn't one big cross or one big tick. It's lots of little things and you can deal with them in little chuncks.

Her tutor is likely on leave for Easter or doing research. Ideally they would have put out of office reply on email but staff don't always remember. She should email again and ask for a tutorial.

You can email her tutor but her tutor will not be able to respond to you. This is only possible if a student has given permission and it's on their record officially.

If your DD can't cope with embarrassment of asking for feedback, then either she seeks to deal with this or higher education is not for her. She won't progress without getting over this idea. Nobody is judging her as being unintelligent. Feedback is essential to development. That's why we write it and expect students (if they want to improve) to act on it.

I would recommend some reading such as Carol Dweck's Growth Mindset.

She really does need to engage and talk to her tutor though. Good on her for emailing. Encourage her to chase it up and/or contact student support.

I was also going to come on and say that while all uni courses have their challenges, philosophy is particularly intangibly ephemerally difficult to grasp. It's elusive. Not there. Everything about it is up for debate. You're always on shifting sands. There is literally nothing that you can grasp with relief and think, this much I know to be true. Whether in moral philosophy, ethics, logic, Wittgenstein's private language argument, how-do-I-know-I'm-not a-brain-in-a-vat or a beetle in a box, the philosophy of religion, whatever. Fascinating but in the end so very frustrating.

There were people in my year who had total breakdowns over philosophy and went off howling into the night. Honestly, they wouldn't have cared by then if they were a beetle in a box. Dropped it as a subject (or as part of their degree) as soon as they could. I persisted out of a sense of perversely grim determination not to be 'beaten', even when I could have opted for 'easier' modules and it was a massive error, frankly. If she can just cut her losses now, I'd be tempted to try to make her see that this isn't a defeat - it's a perfectly rational escape route while the going is good, and a switch to a rational subject that plays to her undoubted intelligence is simply the cannier, more strategic option.

What is her subject? Would she appreciate extra help? My daughter is an academic mentor and she was at one of the RG Unis. She is doing freelance soon.

It's really common for neurodivergent girls to cope though school only to struggle with the first year of uni, because girls are generally better at masking. Definitely look into dyslexia and ADHD in particular for the spelling and disorganisation. I would book her into an appointment and do everything you can to make her go. Also maybe see if taking a year out could be possible.

Agree with this........
I went to uni later in life, first assignment I got 40% which really depressed me as I was top of the class in the access course before it. Turned out I'd forgotten about referencing altogether. Most of my first year results were pretty low but I think the reason they don't count towards your final result is because they almost see it as training you to give them what they want. I ended up with a first. But to be honest so long as she is enjoying it she shouldn't worry so much about marks, hardly anybody ever asks. Between me and three children we have wide variety of results and the one with the 2.2 has the highest paying job of us all 🤷

Do you think she has worked hard this year? Has she been able to coast in the past?

It isn't uncommon for people who have done well at school to flounder without the structure imposed on them. It isn't uncommon for people who sailed through school to get a shock at university.

She should look at the feedback for the courses she has done badly in and really reflect on it before asking to meet the course organiser for that module. They can see her grades anyway, they will be a lot more impressed if she proactively addresses why she did badly than if she hides away and it looks like she's fine with it or doesn't care.

I don't think it sounds like that unusual an experience and could just be a wake up call rather than a sign she'll do badly later.

I really struggled in my first year at uni and just about scraped a 2:2 but I left university with a 1st! 2nd and 3rd year are harder in terms of workload but I felt far more driven and understood more what was expected of me. The first year is about finding your feet and basically learning how to learn at that level - it's very different to sixth form. She would benefit from speaking to a lecturer who can point her in the right direction - reading around the subject rather than just the required reading helps a lot!

I only just passed my first year with lots of 40s and got a 2:1 overall (back in the 90s). I just didn't know what was expected of me at the beginning.

My husband did philosophy at university and now he is a computer programmer and he's often said that his degree prepared him well for his job (when people joke about it). It's an extremely logical subject and really not suited to everyone.

I'd suggest seeing if your daughter could find some good examples of philosophy essays and then writing a checklist of what makes them good (in additional to getting help from uni etc.)

There were people in my year who had total breakdowns over philosophy and went off howling into the night. Honestly, they wouldn't have cared by then if they were a beetle in a box

Ha! That made me laugh.

Don’t arrange a private assessment. Most unis will pay for a private assessment and can arrange this in weeks. If diagnosed your daughter can apply for the Disabled Students Allowances, which may pay for her to attend 1:1 study skills tuition.

I was in the top sets at school then struggled massively at a RG uni as the constant short deadlines were taken away. I was mis-diagnosed with mild dyslexia, I actually have ADHD. If you’d like to look into ADHD my symptoms included;

1.Perfectionist who has experienced immense anxiety at not being able to get on with work when I want to, so overall I overwork
2.Never misses a deadline but is only able to get in with my work when a deadline is looming
3.When I’m not taking ADHD meds my mind is an explosion of thoughts
4.When not taking meds I have no inner peace- I can’t sit and rest and then I beat myself up that I can’t do anything (e.g either rest or get on with my work)

Some universities have extra closure days at Easter and are closed longer than Good Friday-Easter Monday. So a week without reply from staff at this time of year may not be unusual.

Academically the first year is usually the easiest year, but as a whole it is usually the hardest year for young people because they have alot to contend with during their first year living away from home. This is why the first years grades are not counted.

So I’d reassure your DD on this that the 1st year isn’t the easiest overall and it’s meant to be a get used to being at Uni, get used to living somewhat independently, get used to what is expected for coursework and exams year.

Secondly, you can arrange a dyslexia assessment for her privately. That would be a good practical help as that will give her access to accommodation and support.

I would not have suggested her dropping out or switching courses because that’s you implying she has failed her first year when obviously the Uni isn’t concerned.

Actually there's loads she can do, and loads you can do. You both sound slightly defeatist and accepting of this already. The 2:1 in year 1 on her course doesn't even count (whereas year marks do count on Ds1's) - so this needs to be taken into account. She needs to get perspective here. and realise that this is not the end of the world and this is all retrievable and with some work and some help and support most of it's probably recoverable. but she doesn't seem to see it that way and that's a concern. Why is that ?

There doesn't seem much fight in either of you. If you both really think it's best, fine, but what will she do then?

I'd fight first. I'd get her to ending course leader again, head of year. Then as mum I'd email both, saying she's given you authority. I'd speak to student support, and the team that deals with dyslexia re DSA.

I'd go with her to speak to GP. Ask referral to be chased re dyslexia. Private counselling.

Talk to her. Don't give up yet. If she wants to, ok. But consider all options first. Don't do anything rash.

Hi, OP -

I feel for both DD and you. I am RG and I think @marmite2023 makes good points in both of her posts.

I am so sorry DD’s PT hasn’t got back to her. That’s very demoralising under the circs. If they don’t have a good rapport, there should be a Student Support Officer, perhaps under a similar name, in the academic unit who can talk with her.

All the ideas for investigating and mitigating possible clinical conditions are good. DD may also have cause to submit one or more Mitigating Circumstances petitions for work this term. Info should be available online. In my School it is important to follow instructions carefully and probably this is true everywhere.

Although as PTs our brief is primarily academic, I once had a student in a very bad way who also confided that she was refusing antidepressants. This was at a time when our Counselling Service was even more overstretched than usual and her NHS counselling appt was months out. In desperation I bought and read a book called Women’s Moods by Sichel and Driscoll (Sichel is a female psychiatrist who is or was affiliated to the eminent Massachusetts General Hospital). It is excellent in discussing how important medication is for the first MH crisis, particularly for young women, and embeds medication in a multifaceted treatment approach. I then gave it to her, and she started ADs, which worked - although apparently often only the second or third does the trick.

The book is excellent rebutting purist ideas against ADs that may be particularly attractive to intellectual young women.

Best wishes to both of you

I’d wait for another week for a reply as it’s still Easter break. Then I’d help her write another request by letting her bounce off you what she wants to say. I’ve sat on the phone with my DCs before as they read an email to me before sending it when they’re anxious about complaining to/or asking for more guidance from their tutor.

I agree this is something she needs to do herself, but she may need your support to do it.

During my first year of university, I received poor grades, which I believe resulted from my overconfidence and lack of utilization of the essay writing resources provided by the institution. However, I decided to take action and began utilizing these resources in addition to paying closer attention to the feedback given by my tutors on my marked assignments.

As a result, I saw a significant improvement in my grades during my second year, although I still struggled to attain the higher marks I wanted.

However, by my third year, everything seemed to fall into place, and I consistently received good grades. It was a significant transformation from initially thinking I would only pass with a 2.2 to achieving a first-class degree.

Universities provide much help with writing academic essays - at least the two I attended did. In my experience, lecturers will also meet up with you to discuss your essay in more detail if you are still confused about where you lost marks or what to do to get those higher grades.

I went to a RG uni in the early 2000's (Sheffield) and the first year didn't count.

I also got better each year. Started slowly with a mix of grades, than gradually got better. Ended up with a solid 2:1 overall, but got firsts in all but one of my thrid year modules. Sometimes it take a while to get into the swing of the changed way of working from school/college to Uni.

That’s great then.
I just wanted to make you aware in case this was the situation. Good luck