Is the Scottish education system failing?

[eurouk]

From talking to (not very happy) friends in Scotland, it sounds as if Highers are at a lower standard than A-levels (an A is a C / D) but many schools don't offer many choices for Advanced Highers because not a lot of pupils take them?

I realise you can go to uni in Scotland with Highers only, but doesn't this put you at a disadvantage when applying for unis in England or elsewhere?

Also, quotas for Scottish students at Scottish unis ... I've heard there are some courses for which the only Scottish students they accept are those with significant contextual flags?

So basically, if you can't get into a Scottish uni, you need to take AHs to (realistically) apply to a good uni in England. But your school may well not even offer the AH subjects you are interested in. So you are stuck between a rock and a hard place, by the sound of it?

A friend went to Cambridge University and one of our teachers questioned why. There was genuinely bafflement at why one would choose an English university, even if it were Oxbridge. Oxbridge applications really weren't discussed or encouraged at all, which I've since realised they would have been with many of our predicted exam results had we been at school England. It's hard to understand how Scotland-focused Scotland is, unless you've lived there. It's not necessarily a bad thing, but it's very different to the mindset in England.

To be fair, when I applied to Oxford, many moons ago, I was treated (not by students but by lecturers) like I had crawled out from under a rock. There was active sneering about Scottish literature and eye rolling. There was a command to explain my qualifications in detail during the interview. It was actually a horrible experience. I met 5 other Scots at the interviews and none of us got offered places. One friend of mine went to Cambridge to do languages.

So the bafflement cut both ways. Oxford seemed rather baffled by Scottish people applying!

Things have hopefully moved forward considerably since then - but I can still see that a lot of Scots, along with people form other parts of the UK and backgrounds think Oxbridge isn't for 'the likes of us'. And since there are many excellent Scottish universities, why bother?

Highers are a one year course, not a 2 year one. Scottish honours degrees being 4 years reflects this. When I was a nipper I got 5 As at higher which was same UCAS points as 3 As at A level, hardly a “low standard”.

Agree with your point on number of offers to Scottish students. This is the SNP and their “free” education causing institutions to cap places for Scots.

That may be a measure of the equivalent amount of knowledge learnt. But A levels study subjects to a greater depth - more equivalent to advanced higher. RG English universities take A levels or advanced higher depth of knowledge as the starting point for their degrees - hence asking for Advanced Highers from Scottish students and having a three year degree.

@Shelefttheweb that is true to an extent but doesn’t explain why some good (not all) English universities offer Scottish Students unconditionals on the basis of their highers.

It would be interesting to compare courses. I would expect ‘pure’ academic subjects would want the depth of knowledge, whereas those with no prior expectation of knowledge may be content with evidence of aptitude.

History / International Relations/ Economics/ Geography / Maths academic enough?

The kids who received unconditionals were doing AH’s but their offers were based on Highers. It surprised me.

And given that Scottish kids do 7 years in primary and only 6 in secondary it surprises me that anecdotally they seem to be fairing pretty well against kids with A levels.

Not international relations or economics as they wouldn’t require these subjects to be studied at A level. But I am surprised a RG level English university would offer for a pure maths course just with a Higher in Maths. English students would normally require A level maths AND further maths.

Shales fist … damn those Scots believing education should be free. Why they ought to be paying double the English rate because they’re savages north of the border wot wot eh?

??

Scottish universities get £1820 per year from the Scottish government to pay for a place for a Scottish Student. An amount that is simply not sustainable without overseas student’s fees subsidising them. English students pay the same university £9250 per year for the same course and overseas students can pay more than £30,000 for the same course. The Scottish government limits the number of places it pays for and because they pay so little the universities don’t push to get more places funded. This means spaces will be available for English students at Scottish universities, but not Scottish students.

@Shelefttheweb English RG universities do not all require FM. They know many schools don’t offer it. If you look at required subjects, A level maths is the most required by the majority. There aren’t enough students with FM to go round.

They would require an advanced higher in maths grade A. Plus two other subjects. Just looked at Liverpool and they want BB for the other two. Exactly the same grades required at A level. No mention of FM.

Doesn't this just show children in England start too young? Scottish children do a year less overall and achieve the same. When I've taught children who have missed education for some reason (travellers, illness, even covid) they've caught up fast in older primary year groups because they're ready for the learning.

Also not sure whether it's been mentioned but because of the system of taking Highers in S5, applying to Uni and then perhaps doing Advanced Highers in S6, some courses/Universities in Scotland will offer direct entry into the second year of the degree, shortening the standard degree from 4 years to 3.

DS was offered this on his microbiology/pharmacology degree at Strathclyde, he could have got into the first year unconditional on his Higher results, or direct entry into the second year but that offer would have been conditional based on what he'd achieved already in his Highers, and getting certain grades in his Advanced Higher Biology/Chemistry.

He didn't take the second year offer and went into the first year which was absolutely the right choice for him as he started Uni in 2021 and for the whole 2021-22 session the classes were entirely online. One of his friends wanted to do medicine but didn't have the grades after Highers, applied for a Pharmacy degree and went into the second year.

Universities need more students with a broader educational background entering their programmes as university research and industry roles have become increasingly interdisciplinary. This is even the case for maths departments who previously only valued depth of mathematical knowledge.

The vast majority of research in universities and industry at the moment is in interdisciplinary areas. Even mathematical research increasingly encompasses a number of disciplines such as science, languages, environmental science, finance, etc, etc. Universities and industry are finding it increasingly difficult to find suitable candidates from the English education system who have the mathematical skills combined with the broad knowledge needed to fulfill these roles. Students from Scotland as well as students from the US and many European countries have an increasing advantage as they have a broader education. For example, very Caltech graduate has completed modules in maths, physics, chemistry, biology, environmental science, social science and humanities.

The question academics are asking at the moment is if the English education system failing. Yes, we still have some of the top research universities in the world but the vast majority of researchers and academics working in the top research centres did not come through the English education system.

My brother works in an industry which has had a recent obsession with recruiting those with a broader educational background. He says it is a nightmare as none of them have the level of technical skill required by his section.

Possibly. But I don’t think it’s great that kids can leave school at 17.

I do think that the English education appears to be more rigorous about learning (facts) whereas the Scottish system seems to be more about skills (within a frustratingly narrow curriculum). I have mixed feeling as to the optimal number of exams at 15/16 but 12-13 in England feels too many and 6-8 in Scotland too few.

But I do think the flexibility of Highers, which if done well leads to kids getting unconditional offers takes a lot of pressure off the Uni application process. The flexibility of the last year that lets kids choose from a range of options in their last year feels not a bad outcome. Especially as there are stretching academic options as well as possibilities for kids to improve for those who did not do so well first time round.

But I don’t think it’s great that kids can leave school at 17.

If they go to University from S5 after Highers they could still be 16

Learning facts is not the same thing as academic rigour.

And
a) I'm not sure the Scottish system doesn't focus on fact learning
b) Learning facts isn't that important a life skill, even if some enjoy it. I was only just now bemoaning the fact that , since coursework has been taken out of most subjects, students no longer edit, refine, proofread or critically evaluate their own work (this change is massively noticeable in subjects which do still have coursework). Much more useful.
c) the skills/knowledge debate tends to be very binary, overlooking the strengths and weaknesses of both, and not seeming to accept both can be valid and can co exist.

But those are gripes about the direction of travel in British education in general, I'd say.

The systems are different, not directly comparable. A levels individually are at a more advanced level but this is reflected in our degrees being only 3 years. Different system, not necessarily better or worse. In reality the different systems suit different learning styles - mine were five doing 12 GCSEs and 4 a levels but not all suit that

Scottish education is all about learning set answers and regurgitating them. No curiosity, no skills, narrow range of facts. Several subjects dumbed down. Although some seem curiously harder than before. We even have advanced higher music which you could have an A in but be mike's of the standard to study it at conservatoire or uni level. And schools are a mess as teachers have to spend so long remembering which pronouns to use this week, they can't actually teach anyway.

• miles off

I have mixed feeling as to the optimal number of exams at 15/16 but 12-13 in England feels too many and 6-8 in Scotland too few.

@Eightytwenty since the reform of the GCSE (and A level) curriculum a few years back now, very few achools, even in the Independent sector, do 12 / 13 GCSEs. Our most recent candidate, DS2, took 11 in 2019, but that included Further Maths (or whatever the particular exam board's Level 2 a bit more stretching maths qualification was called). Otherwise, it would have been 10, as DD took at a different sxhool two years earlier, both of them plus 'non exam course PE / games. 4 years further back again, though, DS1 did take 12, or rather, 11½, since he availed himself of the opportunity to take only the 'short course' in RE. He would have taken 12½, but the school wouldn't put him in for the exam in DT. And before anyone says, They didn't oughter do that, I actually nearly wept with gratitude when the HoD rang me, such a plague upon our house the wretched subject / DS1 combo had turned out to be.

Some schools do 9 as standard, a few only 8.

Slightly off the main topic here, but you mentioned apprenticeships in Scotland. I work in Early Careers and have recently joined a business who have staff across the whole of the UK. I previously only dealt with apprenticeships for England and Wales. Now I am dealing with apprenticeships in Scotland, N.Ireland and R.Ireland.

Scotland is definitely not the worst out of the 3 new systems I am dealing with, but the choices and funding are really not great in Scotland. To ensure that we are able to offer the same opportunities for our young people in Scotland, I am having to send them on English apprenticeship programmes and pay a commercial rate for them.