Is the Scottish education system failing?

[eurouk]

From talking to (not very happy) friends in Scotland, it sounds as if Highers are at a lower standard than A-levels (an A is a C / D) but many schools don't offer many choices for Advanced Highers because not a lot of pupils take them?

I realise you can go to uni in Scotland with Highers only, but doesn't this put you at a disadvantage when applying for unis in England or elsewhere?

Also, quotas for Scottish students at Scottish unis ... I've heard there are some courses for which the only Scottish students they accept are those with significant contextual flags?

So basically, if you can't get into a Scottish uni, you need to take AHs to (realistically) apply to a good uni in England. But your school may well not even offer the AH subjects you are interested in. So you are stuck between a rock and a hard place, by the sound of it?

They're only 'massive gaps' because you say so, though?

I'd also argue doing absolutely no Indian or African history could be a 'massive gap'.

The Nat 5 includes far more than what you say.

The PISA is considered quite flawed by lots of people, not just in Scotland.

People could have the same arguments about overseas students for the London universities and Oxbridge, as an aside.

Interesting Full fact here, if a little dated

https://fullfact.org/scotland/johnson-education-claims/

Grade inflation does not equal better education - or you could say students were better educated during the pandemic lockdowns than at any other time.

Nor would I say a government statement on music tuition followed by questions equalled a ‘debate on education’.

I am really out of date on the Scottish education system (to put it in context Advanced Highers didn't exist in my day) but I think there is a tension in this thread between two different issues:

• a general comparison of the Scottish and English systems
• how the Scottish system is doing right now compared with the past.

The impression I got was that the OP was interested in the latter. Family in Scotland seem pretty unimpressed by how the Scottish education system is doing now compared with in the past, but then they are not SNP voters. There is also a lot of unhappiness about the fact that Scottish funding for universities caps the number of children who succeed in getting a place. The whole system is predicated on English children attending Scottish universities as fee payers because the Scottish government funding is insufficient.

No. Chemistry and Biology
Done English, Maths, French, German and Physics ant High school

Another reason I was wondering this was reading another thread saying that, across the whole U.K., Scottish students achieve the lowest rates of the equivalent of an A grade at A-level (which translates to a B grade in AHs - or 48 UCAS points).

In SE England and Northerrn Ireland, 10% of A level grades are at A but, in Scotland, only 4.5% achieve a B in AHs.

I imagine if you compare the ratios of A star grades at A-level compared to A at AH (both of which are worth 56 UCAS points) the difference would be even more marked.

Possibly connected to this is that the acceptance ratio to Oxbridge for Scottish students is the lowest across the U.K. I don't mean numbers applying - I mean the ratio of offers to Scottish applicants out of those who apply. This is despite concerted efforts by these unis to have more even representation from different areas of the U.K. For instance, acceptance ratios have improved in NE England and Wales, but not Scotland.

Could it be that because students are perhaps 'only' doing 2 AHs alongside 4 or 5 Highers, that very competitive unis don't see it as enough 'depth?' I don't know?

I suppose for very able students, if they can't get into St As or Edinburgh for certain courses because numbers for home students are capped, but them something seems to be working against them at very competitive unis in England, this is very unfair? But I could be wrong and very happy to be corrected!

I suspect fewer Scottish students get the equivalent of As at A level because the don’t need to. Scottish University places are offered based on Highers and despite most students staying on to S6, the university courses are structured around going to university after S5 (Highers) hence the four year courses. Even courses such as medicine are offered based on Highers - hence when they make it conditional upon AH they only ask for Bs. Those with unconditional offers also don’t have the same incentive to work so hard for AH.

Of course this doesn’t apply to Oxbridge who require AH. But the school system may count against Scottish applicants especially if they only have a limited choice of AH, and having classmates without the same incentive to achieve A1s in AH might impact too.

I suspect fewer Scottish students get the equivalent of As at A level because the don’t need to.

Agree. Both my eldest who is at Uni and my middle who is currently applying got unconditionals based on their Higher results. They both took their foot very much off the gas, bit of revision but definitely nothing of the scale for Highers. Very much of a "doesn't matter" mindset.

Yes, it was!! That's my entire point!!

But that doesn't remotely match the specification I posted upthread...

They did one topic? For the whole of Nat 5?

Oh sorry, just reread. Highers. Still. only one topic?

And for two years?

Here's the spec

https://www.sqa.org.uk/files_ccc/HigherCourseSpecHistory.pdf

To be honest OP, Oxbridge was always biased against Scottish applicants. They may well be working to rectify this but that is always a slow process.

It's really nigh on impossible to compare the two systems....the population of Scotland is only 5.5 million...!

There's a really good network of colleges in Scotland, which provide good access to higher education, particularly UHI, with some really remote and specialist learning centres.

There are some higher education establishments that offer really niche qualifications, like degrees in petroleum, offshore drilling, oil rig decommissioning etc... These are highly sought after by international students and are not available all over the UK.

There is a very good system of apprenticeships in Scotland, which is seen as a really good route for social mobility and is highly respected and promoted by local authorities.

The unemployment rate in Scotland is very low and actually they are crying out for staff in almost every industry. This is partly why Brexit is very unpopular here, especially within the hospitality sector... this also means that school leavers can walk into jobs much more easily here and crucially can progress up the career ladder.

What I'm trying to say is that yes there's hearsay and you will hear all kinds of opinions but it isn't the full picture and I've only briefly touched upon other factors to consider.

DD and DS both did H History.

They did three units each on a different aspect of history

Scottish - wars of Independence, Robert Bruce etc
Britain - 1851-1951 - women's suffrage, political reforms
World - German unification

My DC is a massive swot, just come back from a school revision class and is determined to get 5 A band 1s at higher. Is down to so 3 AH but if a place at the uni of choice is achieved, I’m expecting their foot to be lifted off the gas and more time being spent on a part time job and extra curriculum stuff. Back in the day I gave up my CYS once I knew I had my uni place and was quite bewildered by all the poor English students telling horror stories about their A level exams.

Thanks knitting- as I thought.

This seems to be true.
Oxford admitted 130 undergraduates from scotland over a 3 year period, so just over 40 per year.
Cambridge admitted 68 students from Scotland in 2021.
So Scottish undergraduates number about 2% of the undergraduate population at oxbridge, whereas if proportional to population it should be 9% so they're underrepresented by a factor of 4.5.

I did 5 highers in 5th year and then in 6th year, I took another 2 highers plus 3 advanced highers. Ended up with 8 A highers and 3 advanced highers (AAB) which I think put me above most English students.

It wasn’t unusual in my school and my school was in a town about 12 miles outside Glasgow with a catchment which included a lot of council estates.

I had to go to a school in a neighbouring town for 2 of my advanced highers as my school didn’t offer them. School paid for taxis then I drove myself once I passed my driving test.

*7 A highers

@izzywizzydizzy

My elder DS was an Oxbridge entrant from Scotland (state school) in 2019. He applied for law which may have helped as no pre-existing knowledge of law was required for the subject test and interview.

On arrival, he found his essay skills may have been a little behind his peers having taken RMPS (crash), mods and music at advanced higher. He took around a term to gain confidence and then Covid happened.

He, however, didn't meet any other Scots during his time there.

So Scottish undergraduates number about 2% of the undergraduate population at oxbridge, whereas if proportional to population it should be 9% so they're underrepresented by a factor of 4.5.

Not quite as you haven’t accounted for international students.