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Higher education

Talk to other parents whose children are preparing for university on our Higher Education forum.

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Medicine 2025 entry

995 replies

HGC2 · 29/03/2023 13:34

Inspired and slightly terrified reading the 2023 entry threads and how much prep has to go into a medicine application!

DC wants to do medicine, probably in Scotland as a Scottish student, doing well at school but this doesn't seem to be enough! School has little / no experience of applications for medicine as a not fantastic state school!

Can anyone advise what work experience / volunteering they will need (currently volunteering at sports club with hope of job)
what are the spreadsheets that people talk about?
How do you strategically apply?

I have one child at uni and they just applied and got a place, this seems like a whole other level!

OP posts:
Thread gallery
46
SoTiredNeedHoliday · 20/06/2024 10:43

@Karolinska why is UCAT tutoring wrong in principle? do tell. Just loving these little digs you make

I agree it may not help but it just might too.

Lurea · 20/06/2024 10:48

@ karolinska, you have aired your point several times. However, your arguments remain anecdotal until they are supported by reliable data. As already suggested by many please let’s keep the focus on the next step forward for our DC. I would greatly appreciate if your interventions at this point are limited to giving advice on how to best prepare for UCAT. I thank you in advance for any constructive advice you could provide on this topic

Unexpecteddrivinginstructor · 20/06/2024 11:19

@Justlikingit on medify/medentry I think it was possible to either do a full mock - i.e. all the different sections or you can choose to do separate training sessions on the different sections. There are also a few mocks available for free on the UCAT website. She found that she fairly quickly reached a threshold on some of the ones she found quite easy such as verbal reasoning, but benefitted more from intensive practice in the weaker areas.

@Pinkfluffypencilcase there were lots available (probably more now) I think it is probably worth just watching a few and seeing which style suits. There was an Australian guy who was quite good https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=6xkKvA1u3xk, a fairly intense student at Kings. It is worth watching a few to see which style works for your child. We watched some of them together because it is something which as a parent you can do and it lightened the mood a little. We would then critically appraise the advice, work out what would help dd. Each one is generally only about ten minutes but it gives a little more focus to the practice.

I think 1:1 tuition might have a place if parents were time poor and the school offered no help. In our case although the school had little idea of what was involved I was on these threads and @mumsneedwine and others gave lots of advice. I also lurked on the student room (dd found that all a bit too intense and stressy) and helped her identify interview questions, asked work colleagues/ friends she didn't know too well to do mock interviews. Although obviously a doctor will give more specific advice, most adults have interviewed or at least had interviews and part of the skill is being able to go in on the day and communicate your experience.

I think that some private schools (and some state) probably give the equivalent of a private tutor input but included in their normal offering. Although an invested parent with the time can help the student to pull together what they need, if a student has no help from school or a parent then they will be at a disadvantage so a tutor could help then. Some for example only find out about the ucat a few weeks before the final sitting. I do my best to help anyone I hear of locally with pointers to help them navigate the process,

The Only UCAT Verbal Reasoning Guide You'll Ever Need

The UCAT Verbal Reasoning Subtest is one that many struggle with. Today, I'll be providing a comprehensive guide to this subtest, including the general strat...

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=6xkKvA1u3xk

Pinkfluffypencilcase · 20/06/2024 11:32

@Unexpecteddrivinginstructor thank you for that.

The whole thing is an intense experience for all involved.

Justlikingit · 20/06/2024 11:32

@Unexpecteddrivinginstructor thank you. This is very helpful

Unexpecteddrivinginstructor · 20/06/2024 11:36

I remember it well. Not wanting to resit the ucat was a major motivator when revising for A levels!

Probably should add that I am sure that there are many other ways/ resources which you could also access, it is partly trial and error finding out what works for your dc.

mumsneedwine · 20/06/2024 11:48

Medify or Medicat. And use the resources in the UCAT website. And buy the book. No need to pay as lots of the courses are nothing you couldn't watch on YouTube. But if helps with confidence, and you can afford it, no harm done.

mumsneedwine · 20/06/2024 11:49

@SoTiredNeedHoliday you're right with the grades. Please don't worry about rankings - they mean nothing . All medicine courses cover the same stuff. They will all now take the same exam at the end.

Bimkom · 20/06/2024 12:45

ColouringPencils · 19/06/2024 06:47

@SkillDuggery oh right, that makes sense! Yes, I am new to all this (probably very obvious haha). Did your older DC do medicine or go on to something else in the end? I think we will also go to look at biomedical sciences at the local open days we go to this weekend.

@Bimkom so Liverpool have a high interview/offer ratio? How did he know he would get an interview? Liverpool is one I thought could be a good option for my DD...

This of course was a couple of years ago - when they scored GCSEs (and his were very good), and then with his UCAT it was pretty certain he would get an interview (you can never be 100% sure of course, but if you look at how they are scoring in a given year, you can usually work our if there is anywhere they are likely to be safe, where they have a chance, and where they simply don't have a chance). Not 100% guaranteed, because things do change year on year, but this is what is meant by being strategic. You look at the different scoring systems and look at which ones play to your DC's strengths - whether it is GCSEs, predicted Grades, UCAT, location (eg Wales, Scotland ) etc etc.

In theory everything (and in practice a lot, although some places are much more opaque than others, which again is where finding out the experience of those who went before comes in) can be found by researching the relevant websites - but you have to know to do that. People told us to do that, and DS did up a spreadsheet of all the medical schools with all this information on it. People who didn't know this information - and when I was following TSR, the years that DS did it, I saw so, so many young people who applied to places where their application was simply wasted because they had absolutely no hope of getting in. It was kind of heartbreaking seeing these young people on there in dispair because of decisions they had made earlier in the year and just getting knocked back, when a little bit of the right advice might have got them a place. And of course they are the sort of young people who have never failed at anything before, and to have themselves repeatedly rejected during their A level year is pretty horrible, it is hard not to take it to heart.
One of the reasons that DS and I felt, psychologically, that if we saw it as a two year thing, then even if he got knocked back, it would (hopefully) not impact his A levels too much. Although even so, he found it hard not to feel the rejection, and he only had more limited ones, and got what he wanted.
We were so grateful to the people who steered us on the journey (and to be honest, relieved we didn't have to go through it a second time - or, like some of the people on TSR, three or four times before they finally got in). Which has a lot to do with why I do keep popping back to these threads.
But because DS has now finished his 2nd year (and he got a deferred place anyway), my knowledge of the specifics of the universities in terms of entrance is relatively old. Liverpool has changed the way it does things at least two times since my DS applied, so you need to look at what they are asking for now. I only brought it because it was an illustration of something we didn't think to look at, which was interview to offer ratio - and tbh I would have said that DS was relatively good at interview. He did debating and public speaking etc at school, and a lot of practice. But clearly not what they were looking for (Liverpool, like many others, give you your scores if you don't get in, and DS was clearly marmite - one interviewer ranked him quite highly and the other didn't, and so his ultimate score was not nearly enough. Now they have probably changed the way they interview - MMIs you get far more people's views on you. So that might not be the case anymore. But the interview to offer ratio is also something worth thinking about if you are lucky enough to have more choice based on your UCAT).

Bimkom · 20/06/2024 13:05

@Needmoresleep (Bimkom, I understand that post grad loans are available, and there might be specific ones for medical related subjects. The advantage of doing the academic year as an undergraduate intercalation is that you get student loans for 4 years and then the NHS pay fees and a small grant for the remaining 1 or 2 years. Ie you don't have to pay fees for the extra year. Also some intercalations are Bachelor and some Masters. I am not sure if you can do the Bachelor ones later as a stand alone.)

But only getting 4 year loans and then getting the NHS to pay the fees for the last two years is a double edged sword. Yes effectively the fees get paid for the Masters, but then you have to find two years of living expenses without a loan, because the NHS bursary really doesn't cover anything approaching the actual cost of living. If you don't Incalcate, then you only have one year that has this problem.

I don't know the details of what DS seems to think you can get in terms of specific masters fundings post qualification - so I really don't know whether it really is a good idea or not for funding purposes (he has also made mutterings about the fact that Mckinsey apparently have some sort of scheme for doctors - the idea being going into management of hospitals I think ultimately). But I can see that it might help if you are already able to earn as a qualified doctor and pick up locum shifts while doing a masters, rather than before you qualify, so it might be swings and roundabouts. And additionally, you might have a better idea what really interests you after finishing medical school and doing your F1 and F2 placement. You might not, some people know after two or three years, but for some people I am sure their real interest might only grow with a bit more experience.

In any event, when we were applying and people were talking about incalcation, it never occurred to us that it was not an irredeemable situation - that many of exactly the same masters (eg at the school of Tropical Medicine), are available post qualification - which is why I thought those people applying now might want to have that information available as well. The first real bottleneck is simply getting a medical place.

Bimkom · 20/06/2024 13:17

ColouringPencils · 19/06/2024 19:35

Sorry to hear about your DS's accident @SkillDuggery. That sounds like it was very hard for him. I hope he continues to make a good recovery.

Money aside, the '2-year process' mentality also takes some confidence, which is perhaps why it is more prevalent in privately educated students. When I applied for Oxford many years ago a lot of my fellow interviewees (all privately educated) for an English degree were on round 2 with grades in hand, whereas I probably would have lacked the confidence to apply again if I had been rejected (which I was, but then messed up my A levels too, so didn't need to worry about that!). I can imagine my DD might feel similarly, although she is a lot more tenacious than I am. Nonetheless, I will tell her to think of it like that, as I can't see any harm in having the idea in mind that if you are unsuccessful you could try again.

One of the things that really helped our "two year process" thinking were the people on TSR who got in after a second (or third, or even fourth) approach. Agree it might be difficult to know how to fund it, but seeing them come back again and ultimately succeed was actually very helpful for us, it made us feel it was a real option. There were quite a lot of them on there DS's year, perhaps because having not applied strategically the first time, and having only found TSR's advice after that, they were keen to help others in that situation, and it did feel so heartwarming when they finally got an offer. There was one who was so helpful on the threads - he only got in the third time off a waitlist in June, and I think I nearly cried, even though I have no idea who he actually is. There is usually one or two trying again on Mumsnet, but nothing like the numbers you see on TSR.

Bimkom · 20/06/2024 13:32

Sloejelly · 19/06/2024 21:21

The problem with year 2 is if you get rejected you will either need to take yet another year to apply for a different subject or go in via clearing which would not be such a considered option.

Gap years I always think of as happening when you have your place so you have a free year. Retaking requires you to be able to go to interviews and possibly more open days so you don’t have the same freedom.

No, because of that fifth place. The second year, apply for four medical places and a place you absolutely know you will get (with grades in hand, that shouldn't be too difficult). Somewhere you are prepared to take if medicine falls through again. Hopefully that fifth choice will come through pretty quickly. Then the usual process for the other four. If you get a medicine offer, then you can reject the fifth offer. If not, take the fifth offer. But agreed, you do need to have the luxury of somewhere to live, something to do (ie be able to get a job etc). But the actual process is not and should not be that difficult to do again. So many of our DC change their minds and end up going somewhere different to where they first thought- and I don't think they are only the private school educated.

Needmoresleep · 20/06/2024 13:32

Bimkom · 20/06/2024 13:05

@Needmoresleep (Bimkom, I understand that post grad loans are available, and there might be specific ones for medical related subjects. The advantage of doing the academic year as an undergraduate intercalation is that you get student loans for 4 years and then the NHS pay fees and a small grant for the remaining 1 or 2 years. Ie you don't have to pay fees for the extra year. Also some intercalations are Bachelor and some Masters. I am not sure if you can do the Bachelor ones later as a stand alone.)

But only getting 4 year loans and then getting the NHS to pay the fees for the last two years is a double edged sword. Yes effectively the fees get paid for the Masters, but then you have to find two years of living expenses without a loan, because the NHS bursary really doesn't cover anything approaching the actual cost of living. If you don't Incalcate, then you only have one year that has this problem.

I don't know the details of what DS seems to think you can get in terms of specific masters fundings post qualification - so I really don't know whether it really is a good idea or not for funding purposes (he has also made mutterings about the fact that Mckinsey apparently have some sort of scheme for doctors - the idea being going into management of hospitals I think ultimately). But I can see that it might help if you are already able to earn as a qualified doctor and pick up locum shifts while doing a masters, rather than before you qualify, so it might be swings and roundabouts. And additionally, you might have a better idea what really interests you after finishing medical school and doing your F1 and F2 placement. You might not, some people know after two or three years, but for some people I am sure their real interest might only grow with a bit more experience.

In any event, when we were applying and people were talking about incalcation, it never occurred to us that it was not an irredeemable situation - that many of exactly the same masters (eg at the school of Tropical Medicine), are available post qualification - which is why I thought those people applying now might want to have that information available as well. The first real bottleneck is simply getting a medical place.

Bitkom, your DS might be right. Actually on most of this there is no right or wrong, just a chance to discuss ideas and experience, and pose questions.

The points I would make if discussing with your son is that some stand alone Masters are incredibly taxing. Students are seen at registration and at graduation but the rest of the time are hidden in classes or in the library. In addition, management masters can be very expensive, depending on the status of the institution, and it is the sort of subject where the status of the institution matters.

I would wager that the most competitive external intercalation is the management one at Imperial. Fees of £9,250 are a bargain compared with what Imperial charge at masters level, and employment prospects post F2 will be very good.

Imperial regularly send DD details of medical engineering vacancies, which can appear particularly tempting when she is feeling gloomy after a long shift. However you are right in that over the past year she and her peers have grown in confidence. An F1 on their first day is very different to one at the end of the year, and her thinking is continuing to evolve. What she, and other F1/F2s probably need is for the career bottleneck/PA situation to be sorted out, and then they will be fine. Wes Streeting, over to you!

Honeylemonandginger · 20/06/2024 13:54

mumsneedwine · 20/06/2024 11:48

Medify or Medicat. And use the resources in the UCAT website. And buy the book. No need to pay as lots of the courses are nothing you couldn't watch on YouTube. But if helps with confidence, and you can afford it, no harm done.

Sorry I’m a little late here. Which book would this be?

mumsneedwine · 20/06/2024 13:55

The newer version of this one

Medicine 2025 entry
SoTiredNeedHoliday · 20/06/2024 14:54

So as you all know I am a relative newbie here hence my question(s) may seem very basic.

Can you please explain the F1 and F2 training and additionally the lack of spots available? Naively I had assumed there would be a spot for all med students that are performing to a high standard in their medical course. However, they may need to relocate of course.

Needmoresleep · 20/06/2024 15:15

SoTiredNeedHoliday · 20/06/2024 14:54

So as you all know I am a relative newbie here hence my question(s) may seem very basic.

Can you please explain the F1 and F2 training and additionally the lack of spots available? Naively I had assumed there would be a spot for all med students that are performing to a high standard in their medical course. However, they may need to relocate of course.

There is a particular problem post F1/F2. The media have been reporting junior doctor strikes as being about pay, but in fact they are about a lot more, and represent a serious level of discontent.

This is a very quick and simple synopsis. I may be wrong and am happy to be corrected, but have no desire to argue over detail.

Medical school places have been expanded, and F1/F2 places will be found, albeit perhaps not where junior doctors want to go. (A separate fuss is about a change in the allocation process which used to be a sort of merit based system using "points" but now you get to state five preferences and if you don't get any of those you get allocated somewhere, the least popular deaneries being Wales and NI, which is not going down well with high fliers from Oxbridge and Imperial who had their hearts set on London teaching hospitals.)

The problem is after that. There is apparently only one specialist training place for every four applicants. (Not sure of the exact figure and it varies by specialisation.) Even GP training, despite the shortage of GPs, is tight. F2 is busy so a normal approach is to take a year out after that either locuming or working as a Clinical Teaching Fellow (ie teaching medical students on placement) or similar giving you time to apply and study for exams. With the squeeze in places people are having to take more than one year so holding onto their locum etc jobs, and the position is made worse by the appointment of Physician Associates who are not only replacing locum positions but are also eating into the available training resource. In short, F1/F2s working their nights and 13 hour shifts see unemployment as a real possibility. Or Australia, or a career outside medicine.

Which is madness.

And needs to be sorted.

More positively once DD was through the first brutal few months of F1, she is really enjoying it. Overhearing her and her flatmate talking about an interesting case one of them had been involved with that day was amazing. They sounded like real confident and competent professionals, less than a year after graduation.

mumsneedwine · 20/06/2024 15:17

@SoTiredNeedHoliday it's going to be depressing.

But, after Uni you apply for Foundation training posts (2 years, 6 rotations, in one deanery). This should be guaranteed, but this year some poor newly qualified doctors are still waiting for a job, because there are not enough. They are due to start last week in July.

Once completed foundation F1 & F2, you should be able to start speciality training, applying half way through F2, taking an exam or producing a portfolio. However, there are not enough jobs so not all F2s can do this. In the past they could do an F3, locumming or get a Junior Fellow post. But again, not enough jobs.

Currently we have GPs, fully qualified consultant levels, driving Ubers because there are no jobs.

The NHS needs a reset. To provide jobs for the doctors (& nurses) we train, and not more jobs for lesser trained (& more expensive) associate staff. Change is starting, but there is a way to go.

Hope that makes sense.

mumsneedwine · 20/06/2024 15:18

@Needmoresleep cross posts.

mumsneedwine · 20/06/2024 16:08

This helps explain some of the issues.

www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/article/2024/jun/20/physician-doctor-reckless-experiment-nhs-associates

Sloejelly · 20/06/2024 16:39

Bimkom · 20/06/2024 13:32

No, because of that fifth place. The second year, apply for four medical places and a place you absolutely know you will get (with grades in hand, that shouldn't be too difficult). Somewhere you are prepared to take if medicine falls through again. Hopefully that fifth choice will come through pretty quickly. Then the usual process for the other four. If you get a medicine offer, then you can reject the fifth offer. If not, take the fifth offer. But agreed, you do need to have the luxury of somewhere to live, something to do (ie be able to get a job etc). But the actual process is not and should not be that difficult to do again. So many of our DC change their minds and end up going somewhere different to where they first thought- and I don't think they are only the private school educated.

Edited

I don’t really agree here; if you don’t get in I think you need to step back and completely rethink. Your alternative career may also be competitive so a single choice for it would be too risky. Equally you wouldn’t want them receiving a medicine directed personal statement (even if you provided a second ). Lots of people put biomedical scientist but I wonder how many who end up taking it end up wishing they had chosen something else?

Sloejelly · 20/06/2024 16:47

I would wager that the most competitive external intercalation is the management one at Imperial.

A number of years ago I remember doing a part time open university post grad diploma in public sector management paid for by the nhs - most of the participants were doctors. There are alternatives.

SoTiredNeedHoliday · 20/06/2024 17:30

@mumsneedwine & @Needmoresleep thank you both really helpful. The NHS has such long waiting lists and the doctors are leaving for better conditions and pay elsewhere in the world and then I learn this today ..... It's like icing on the cake,
Why is this not in the manifestos being swung around at the moment, actually employ the people we have trained and keep building them up so it protects the health system. Along with improving the conditions and salary so that it is not a no-brainer to eventually move to another country for these valued members of our community. 🙄
What is the point training more doctors if the system can't provide them a job

mumsneedwine · 20/06/2024 17:33

🤷‍♀️ we have more than enough doctors to fill the rotas. There are not enough jobs for them.

Same with nurses. It's a fiasco to try and force people to go private.

mumsneedwine · 20/06/2024 17:34

Doctors have been screaming for years that there's no point having more medical school places if we don't provide jobs at the end. But the NHS leaders don't seem to care.