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Higher education

Talk to other parents whose children are preparing for university on our Higher Education forum.

Degree Apprenticeships

59 replies

Radical0live · 21/03/2023 21:19

Please can anyone tell me whether these are a good option or whether employers prefer normal degrees?

My daughter is autistic, not good social skills but good at programming and bright. I'm trying to work out whether she would even get into one of these, are they very competitive? In which case her social skills will be a big disadvantage.

Just wondering if people have any knowledge or opinions they might be able to share

OP posts:
ReadyForPumpkins · 10/10/2023 08:48

All the people I heard getting them, the ones with the top companies, are AA* students. You need to be very good to get them. The local 6th form college is putting them into new starter info like they are entries into Oxbridge.

chocorabbit · 10/10/2023 10:49

PikachuChickenRice · 09/10/2023 17:33

Yes, I certainly thought your advice was outdated.

An astonishing amount of code in use even today was written by university students. The Linux OS - started by Linus Torvalds as a student. Students at the University of Staffordshire got to 'improve the kernel' as a side project and again, lot of their code forms the bedrock of operating systems all over the world!

Therefore 'just graduated no experience' is no excuse - perhaps your husband's degree was lacking in rigour. Or, he just did his homework and didn't explore any more. Or maybe, he didn't showcase what he'd done thinking it wasn't that important. Bill Gates, Mark Z all spent hours working on their own projects. Few know that, while he's known as a business man Bill was a very capable programmer and in fact contributed to a paper with one of his lecturers, solving an algorithm problem presented to the class. For fun.

Furthermore, 20 years ago because computer science degrees were not that common companies much preferred taking on top graduates from good universities from any degree and training them. Others were people who had done some sort of programming or been exposed to it in an unrelated job and worked their way up.

I'm not knocking your husband. My own went to a bottom ranked university more recently. But he is an excellent programmer. By the time he had graduated he had lots of personal projects on his GitHub portfolio and interviewers were falling over themselves to hire him. I worked with many people daily who went to bottom unis 20 years ago all had their passion projects.

Any 'RG', Cambridge whatever student that has only done their homework and nothing else - instant reject :)

In 2023 most interviews are automated as well people who pass the first few stages have a good chance of getting an interview - no CV sift at the first stage. And there's at least one 'degree blind' interview. I can tell how competent someone is, I don't need to see their degree to know that. In fact I'm extremely wary of hiring 'rockstars', top academically who cannot cope with imperfection and uncertainty. Because technical roles are as much about the 'least worst' solution for non-technical reasons as they are about technical competence.

Edited

Or maybe he was working more than 30 hours a week to provide for himself and his parents (FIL was ill) and could have done without hiring managers' sarcasm and their unsubstantiated allegations. He was a brilliant programmer.

Do you think most people have time for their own projects with all the homework and endless working hours? A 3rd year student was telling me recently that there are students on her course who will check today's timetable and if there is only 1 hour of lessons they don't bother to go because they can't afford it.

Now he spends evenings, weekends and nights learning other technologies and has left companies because he would end up unemployable without practising his certifications. In the meantime his Imperial C friend has stayed at the university spoon-feeding phase and does not do any learning of his own being many steps behind him.

As for their rigour, I couldn't really compare. He was definitely much better than his RG colleagues in the same job who couldn't programme. He told me that during his A-Levels he was helping a girl from UCL do her programming because she had no idea Confused UCL had rejected him because (he phoned them on results day) he had no Physics (they hadn't asked for it!) and I am really curious, was any student those days ever asked to have Physics A-Level? This has been bugging me for a long time!

chocorabbit · 10/10/2023 10:51

pebblesondabeach · 10/10/2023 08:21

Does anyone know whether the government's "Find an Apprenticeship" site only shows apprenticeships for which the application window is open, or all apprenticeships?

I'm asking because I searched for degree apprenticeships with the keyword "engineering" in all England and only got 8 results, mainly in the defence sector (e.g. missile hardware 😬)

Edited

For example Goldman Sachs's is open but I couldn't find it on the gov website when I looked for it. You really have to search by yourself. They said that UCAS would put them all on their platform.

Thejackrussellsrule · 10/10/2023 10:56

My son didn't want to do the tradition uni route. He did an apprenticeship after A levels, the company then put him on a degree apprenticeship. It's a proper degree course, he's doing Civil Engineering, he does it in block weeks rather than weekly day release. The company pay him a decent wage, he has course fees, any materials needed, travel, accommodation and food whilst at Uni, so essentially, it doesn't cost him anything. Definitely the right route for him.

PikachuChickenRice · 10/10/2023 12:42

chocorabbit · 10/10/2023 10:49

Or maybe he was working more than 30 hours a week to provide for himself and his parents (FIL was ill) and could have done without hiring managers' sarcasm and their unsubstantiated allegations. He was a brilliant programmer.

Do you think most people have time for their own projects with all the homework and endless working hours? A 3rd year student was telling me recently that there are students on her course who will check today's timetable and if there is only 1 hour of lessons they don't bother to go because they can't afford it.

Now he spends evenings, weekends and nights learning other technologies and has left companies because he would end up unemployable without practising his certifications. In the meantime his Imperial C friend has stayed at the university spoon-feeding phase and does not do any learning of his own being many steps behind him.

As for their rigour, I couldn't really compare. He was definitely much better than his RG colleagues in the same job who couldn't programme. He told me that during his A-Levels he was helping a girl from UCL do her programming because she had no idea Confused UCL had rejected him because (he phoned them on results day) he had no Physics (they hadn't asked for it!) and I am really curious, was any student those days ever asked to have Physics A-Level? This has been bugging me for a long time!

Well I can answer your second question - they certainly do have time for all of it , because I hire lots of them. AND, guess what, they have part-time jobs too. So no idea why you think 'most people' don't have the time they certainly do. It also depends on your uni and module choice - as they vary in difficulty. People must choose them carefully if the workload is overwhelming then they may not be suited. Bear in mind as well that 'harder' projects usually provide something you can build on, so you don't need to spend much time on coming up with your own personal stuff just add to it.

As I alluded to upthread the reality is that a programming is less 'academic' and more of a craft. Top courses especially can be too much theory, less programming and while most RG grads are clued in enough to have their own projects I do see the odd few who haven't.

Once you have the fundamentals down learning any technology is quick but there is no substitute for the hours of experience to get there. How quickly people want to do it, is up to them. Some get this over years... and advance slowly, some choose (like me) to do it on their own time.

IT is not easy - apart from the 'do it yourself' you are also competing with the entire world. At any given time., your job could be automated or offshored. Obviously this applies to a lot of professions but a doctor for example can't be offshored and an accountant needs to have the accepted qualifications + works closely with the business.

The main reason I called you out is because it's more damaging for people to go to an 'RG' uni and barely handle the workload. Compared to going to a 'lower ranked' uni and doing their own projects, really understanding what they're doing. The focus is also different the former is much more theoretical and does academic things that 99% of programmers will never need. Of course, if you can do it all, go for that!
Companies are going towards apprenticeships and bootcamps now. Personally if I had my way I'd institute proper qualifications and training programs, like in accountancy, do a degree if you like but that's not the main point. Then the employer pays for training instead of people doing it on their own - and the skills are all centralised and transferable. The majority of 'certifications' are loved by HR but useless in real life as they're geared towards memorising the features of vendor products with no understanding of the core underlying tech. Especially with AWS I have 'certified people' who don't know that a load balancer is an infrastructure concept not something that AWS invented.

chocorabbit · 10/10/2023 15:44

ReadyForPumpkins · 10/10/2023 08:48

All the people I heard getting them, the ones with the top companies, are AA* students. You need to be very good to get them. The local 6th form college is putting them into new starter info like they are entries into Oxbridge.

They usually have many different stages so if you pass one you move to the next. It's mostly about your personality, aptitude and team working. Any customer face role should help. DH has always been asked to deal with clients including being sent abroad because before he got his first IT job he had worked for a number of years in customer facing jobs.

chocorabbit · 10/10/2023 16:41

PikachuChickenRice · 10/10/2023 12:42

Well I can answer your second question - they certainly do have time for all of it , because I hire lots of them. AND, guess what, they have part-time jobs too. So no idea why you think 'most people' don't have the time they certainly do. It also depends on your uni and module choice - as they vary in difficulty. People must choose them carefully if the workload is overwhelming then they may not be suited. Bear in mind as well that 'harder' projects usually provide something you can build on, so you don't need to spend much time on coming up with your own personal stuff just add to it.

As I alluded to upthread the reality is that a programming is less 'academic' and more of a craft. Top courses especially can be too much theory, less programming and while most RG grads are clued in enough to have their own projects I do see the odd few who haven't.

Once you have the fundamentals down learning any technology is quick but there is no substitute for the hours of experience to get there. How quickly people want to do it, is up to them. Some get this over years... and advance slowly, some choose (like me) to do it on their own time.

IT is not easy - apart from the 'do it yourself' you are also competing with the entire world. At any given time., your job could be automated or offshored. Obviously this applies to a lot of professions but a doctor for example can't be offshored and an accountant needs to have the accepted qualifications + works closely with the business.

The main reason I called you out is because it's more damaging for people to go to an 'RG' uni and barely handle the workload. Compared to going to a 'lower ranked' uni and doing their own projects, really understanding what they're doing. The focus is also different the former is much more theoretical and does academic things that 99% of programmers will never need. Of course, if you can do it all, go for that!
Companies are going towards apprenticeships and bootcamps now. Personally if I had my way I'd institute proper qualifications and training programs, like in accountancy, do a degree if you like but that's not the main point. Then the employer pays for training instead of people doing it on their own - and the skills are all centralised and transferable. The majority of 'certifications' are loved by HR but useless in real life as they're geared towards memorising the features of vendor products with no understanding of the core underlying tech. Especially with AWS I have 'certified people' who don't know that a load balancer is an infrastructure concept not something that AWS invented.

Edited

Do you really think that people don't quit their studies due to financial difficulties? You don't know how many hours DH worked. He was sleeping in lectures with other students trying to wake him up. He hadn't planned it to be like that but he suddenly had to. But why call someone for an interview just to insult their degree classification from a university you don't like? I thought that was the exact point of companies introducing aptitude tests on graduates, because of misfortune and people having unpredictable lives.

I do agree with the rest of your post though. Learning is an ongoing duty. DH knows people with AWS certifications (from the UK) who know nothing.

sadaboutmycat · 10/10/2023 17:07

PropellerDance · 21/03/2023 21:54

Do you mean a sponsored degree?

What industry? I did a sponsored degree, worked full-time for the company for 4 days and studied for one day. It wasn't a particularly competitive recruitment process. I had to attend a day of tests and interviews.

A lot of companies aim to recruit a set number each year. I think they might even get funding from the government for it. I don't think a lot of industries would be particularly competitive to get a sponsored degree.

No, OP means an Apprenticeship.
Employed and qualifying as you work. They're available up to Masters level in some subjects as well as Degree.

sadaboutmycat · 10/10/2023 17:08

Crockof · 21/03/2023 22:30

Where are the best places to look for these apprenticeships, I've not heard of them and I'm currently supporting a young lad and I'd like to help him.

Google 'Find an Apprenticeship'

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