Degree Apprenticeships

[Radical0live]

Please can anyone tell me whether these are a good option or whether employers prefer normal degrees?

My daughter is autistic, not good social skills but good at programming and bright. I'm trying to work out whether she would even get into one of these, are they very competitive? In which case her social skills will be a big disadvantage.

Just wondering if people have any knowledge or opinions they might be able to share

Those high grades are generally for Degree apprenticeships, involving going to Uni and working at the same time.
For ordinary apprenticeships lower grades are less of a problem

He's thinking of a degree apprenticeship and I've looked at loads - they all ask for BBB or lower. These are for business/management/supply chain. I suppose I just want to understand if the real cut off is higher.

I can't speak for other institutions/departments, but we ask for AAA for our degree apprenticeship programmes. This is also our standard offer for UG degree programmes.

Thanks, it might be because most of the programmes I’ve looked at are in conjunction with lower ranked unis, like Manchester Met, Sheffield Hallam and Aston.

They seem to vary massively from AAA to CCC all degree level 6. Lots of the degree apprenticeships are B’s ish for business / management. The ones wanting As tend to be tech/engineers and now law. The thing is the companies themselves often don’t mind too much as they’ll have their own (usually quite rigorous) selection process. The university will have set the grade requirement that fits best with the actual degree they offer.
At one Big4 because of the stress of Teacher Assessed Grades they told all the apprentices who’d passed their recruitment process and gained a place that they’d be accepted regardless of grades.

I think the fact that the apprenticeships are linked to lower ranked universities does put some people off (esp parents) but I think once you’re in the company no-one cares where you went to uni, it’ll be your work experience and employability that’ll matter.

I agree @NotDonna , I think the work experience should trump uni name.

I can't speak for all degree apprenticeship programmes, but we are not a "lower ranked university" (Russell Group). You need to look at not only the university, but the caliber of the sponsoring employer: our partners include Goldman Sachs, Bloomberg, Deutsche Bank, Civil Service, PWC etc. The entry requirements are generally the same as for standard UG programmes, but the degree apprenticeships are a lot more competitive to gain a place.

@BlackLambAndGreyFalcon what subjects does your institution offer for degree apprenticeships?

@crazycrofter Finance, Digital and Technology, Heritage Management, Economics, Systems Engineering, Economics, Business (not all are UG level though, some are PG only).

Then the government itself should offer more degree level apprenticeships. I have seen one in IT for the DWP with a 32k salary but it is a level 4, not a degree. Unfortunately there is a ceiling and after a point you can't get promoted to higher management positions.

Also from family experience (IT) many companies will reject you if you do not have a degree from a RG or other top university BUT once you manage to get work experience in your field that's it, nobody will ask you again where you did your degree. However, I don't know if companies like the big4 would ever accept anyone from a bottom university, even with work experience. I have seen several from a specific bottom university taken by Morgan Stanley but I don't remember if it was their first job or subsequent.

I used to work for a big 4. Most of the ACA graduate cohort seemed to come from RG unis but when we were hiring experienced hires (and this would include people who’d only graduated a year or two before) the uni wasn’t relevant. I worked with colleagues from Coventry, Derby, Manchester Met, BCU etc etc.

What's the big 4? I thought they were the animals you saw on safari
I like the idea of a degree apprenticeship for dd, but if they don't integrate with students in the same way I know he'll feel like he's missed out.

The animals on safari are the big 5 @NCTDN !

The big 4 are the accounting firms EY, Deloitte, PwC and KPMG.

@chocorabbit It may depend on the area within the Big4 but if it’s accountancy once you’re qualified ACA/chartered no one gives a hoot about uni. The Big4 ‘level 7 school leaver apprenticeships’ for accounting tend to use Kaplan and BPP for the ACA exams and not universities anyway. Technically these aren’t ‘degree’ apprenticeships as they don’t get a degree per se, they get Chartered status (post grad level) so a fast track I guess doing the ‘degree’ the first year and then join the grads for the professional & advanced post grad exams.

PwC recruits university blind and has recently said that for their grad schemes they’ll also be degree classification blind. All in an attempt to widen access. Their recruiting process is pretty rigorous so they’ll still get the people they want. I’ve no idea if Deloitte, KPMG &EY are doing similar but I wouldn’t be surprised.

@NCTDN on DDs apprenticeship they don’t go to uni (it’s Kaplan). Her cohort started with 35 across the whole of the U.K. so it’s nothing like uni; it’s totally different. Some degree apprenticeships have day release to uni, some have block release & Dyson have their own institute! Some companies have one or two apprentices others have considerably more. What industry is your DD considering?

My daughter has just completed a four year BSc degree with one of the Big Four. She also ran her UCAS university application side-by-side to applying for Degree Apprenticeships, so had both University offers & her DA offer to choose between on A Level results day. She did this because the DA route application process is very competitive - online assessment stages and final big assessment day in person. Her cohort were also a good diverse mix too. She has qualified with a First and 4 year's fully paid work experience & no student debt aged 22. It was definitely the right route for her, she was ready to work too. It was a very tough way of doing a degree as she had to balance a corporate workload with x2 evening lectures after full on work days, one study day a week & used her weekends to complete module assignments. Her dissertation was focused purely on a relevant work based project, so very relevant to the job market & her research paper was presented & published - great for her CV now! She had 5 Russell Group UCAS acceptances and we sat down and discussed the route with her at the time. Now, after 4 years she is heading towards a managerial role, has grown & matured a lot, has great work experience & business contacts too. It's not an easy route at all and very testing at times, but for her it was completely the right route & at the end of the day, her decision completely. She had to do a lot of her own research at the time though as like a lot of sixth forms, they are mostly focused on getting students into university, so it did feel like she was ploughing her own field at the time, but no regrets at all now! Best of luck

They are great if you can get a good one.

My daughter has just started with a large international consultancy. She needed 3 A's at A level as an entry qualification for the job. The university entry level was ABB. Each employer will have their own entry requirement. The selection process involves aptitude testing, group selection activities and interviews.
The jobs are very hotly sought after.
The employer pays the University fees and also pays a salary. So after 4 years they have earned £100k , have no student debt and have 4 years work experience. So I think it's a very good avenue to persue.

Next time you have a long link like this, I recommend you trim off everything after the question mark - it's all just google analytics tracking information.

Don't know what your family member does but it's complete rubbish that top IT employers consider the 'quality' degrees - it's one of the more egalitarian fields and many degrees don't truly prepare graduates anyway. It's the personal projects and hands-on experience that's far more important. Anybody who can pass screenings and technical interviews is fit for the job.

Top degrees have more theoretical component which some of the top jobs require but the majority of technical employees won't work in such roles. And the true learning starts only out of university.

I do think RG universities have a stronger career focus so rarely do their graduates come out without knowing the importrance of a portfolio etc. Many lower ranked uni students don't know especially if they're first generation they think a degree is enough to get them the job sadly. The ones in the know who have taken part in industry competitions etc are excellent.

It's the atmosphere that makes the grad not the 'RG degree' itself. That's why it seems to be weighted towards them.

OP I'm a software developer for a large company. ADHD. Married to an autistic man also a programmer. Loads of us in this field. Every year I hire lots of grads and apprentices.
Your daughter can ask for reasonable adjustments during the interview which for large companies with centralised HR is usually well managed.
The first job actually is the easiest despite people talking about competition because:

a) There are loads of vacancies if you apply early! Usually it's rolling basis where the first to pass all the automated stages get offered the final interview. I've had assessment centres where all candidates got an offer.

b) The questions are all structured. The same each year and if you look online you can find them. Even if they change they are always around the same theme the company's values.

Apprentices are expected to have less polish than grads or even adult hires so it's more lenient.

Your main problem will be getting pass the automated tests but again as it's all very structured and regiment it will be the easiest proper interview you have in your life. for a professional life. Except for the jobs you get without an interview...

Experience is very valuable in IT so experience trumps degree or even degree calibre. Every. Time.

It was DH, albeit more than 20 years ago. He had hiring managers tell him in a condescending manner that since he had a degree from a bottom university he should have at least graduated with a 1st! Constantly being asked for a long code project which didn't exist as he had just graduated so it took him years and dishonesty to get an IT job. When he finally got in he realised he knew much more than the rest of his team and has always ended up doing work for incompetent colleagues. In fact, a few years later in another company they offered to pay for an employee's degree as they considered it as essential. All managers had degrees.

BUT after he got his foot through the door nobody has bothered to check where he graduated from. In fact, he knows someone who has graduated from Imperial with a first and now his CV is absolutely dated. People keep asking me hos is DH and I reply "oh, he was busy studying last night" and they keep asking what? They don't understand that you need to keep studying and if your company doesn't embrace new technologies which you have studied and might even have certifications for go somewhere else with better career develepment or you'll end up unemployable!

Yes, I certainly thought your advice was outdated.

An astonishing amount of code in use even today was written by university students. The Linux OS - started by Linus Torvalds as a student. Students at the University of Staffordshire got to 'improve the kernel' as a side project and again, lot of their code forms the bedrock of operating systems all over the world!

Therefore 'just graduated no experience' is no excuse - perhaps your husband's degree was lacking in rigour. Or, he just did his homework and didn't explore any more. Or maybe, he didn't showcase what he'd done thinking it wasn't that important. Bill Gates, Mark Z all spent hours working on their own projects. Few know that, while he's known as a business man Bill was a very capable programmer and in fact contributed to a paper with one of his lecturers, solving an algorithm problem presented to the class. For fun.

Furthermore, 20 years ago because computer science degrees were not that common companies much preferred taking on top graduates from good universities from any degree and training them. Others were people who had done some sort of programming or been exposed to it in an unrelated job and worked their way up.

I'm not knocking your husband. My own went to a bottom ranked university more recently. But he is an excellent programmer. By the time he had graduated he had lots of personal projects on his GitHub portfolio and interviewers were falling over themselves to hire him. I worked with many people daily who went to bottom unis 20 years ago all had their passion projects.

Any 'RG', Cambridge whatever student that has only done their homework and nothing else - instant reject :)

In 2023 most interviews are automated as well people who pass the first few stages have a good chance of getting an interview - no CV sift at the first stage. And there's at least one 'degree blind' interview. I can tell how competent someone is, I don't need to see their degree to know that. In fact I'm extremely wary of hiring 'rockstars', top academically who cannot cope with imperfection and uncertainty. Because technical roles are as much about the 'least worst' solution for non-technical reasons as they are about technical competence.

Does anyone know whether the government's "Find an Apprenticeship" site only shows apprenticeships for which the application window is open, or all apprenticeships?

I'm asking because I searched for degree apprenticeships with the keyword "engineering" in all England and only got 8 results, mainly in the defence sector (e.g. missile hardware 😬)

Hi pebbles, Yes, the Gov apprenticeship website will only show 'live' positions. Note that not all employers list vacancies on third party websites and the expectation is that potential candidates check out individual company websites and sign up for vacancy alerts (where this feature is offered).