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Higher education

Talk to other parents whose children are preparing for university on our Higher Education forum.

Admissions advice needed please

73 replies

OnTh3Up · 16/03/2023 16:43

DS is currently in year 11.

He has had a very late identification of literacy processing difficulties** after I asked the SENCo to assess him.
He has had patchy teaching of geography.
He has one lesson a week of RE.

He is due to take 13 GCSEs which creates a very full exam timetable.

I have asked the school if he can drop RE and Geography.

The school have said dropping Geography could affect future university applications as it reduces the breadth of subjects.

Predicted Grades
Maths 9
Further maths 8/9
Statistics 8/9
Biology 7
Chemistry 8
Physics 8
Photography 8
Engineering 8
Music 8
English 4/5
English Lit 4/5

RE 3
Geography 3

He wants to do maths, computer science and photography A Levels and is considering a career in computer games design.

WWYD?
Drop RE and Geography?
Stick with Geography?

OP posts:
FictionalCharacter · 23/03/2023 17:43

Revengeofthepangolins · 16/03/2023 17:27

Universities will absolutely not care

This! And he’s doing far too many GCSEs. More isn’t better.

PerpetualOptimist · 23/03/2023 17:53

The school is (deliberately or otherwise) missing the key point. They say unis 'like' the Ebacc - this woolley assertion is simply not true; ask for the evidence; there isn't any. What unis with more competitive STEM courses typically require is a minimum of 5 in Eng Lang.

Any time freed by dropping RE should be devoted to pulling the Eng Lang grade up to a 5, not dragging a previously disjointedly taught Geography up to a 4. Wrong priorities.

Dropping RE simply reduces his GCSE count from 13 to 12. Fewer that 0.1% of students took 12 or more GSCEs in the summer 2022 exam series. Dropping Geography frees up more critical time for Eng Lang and, even then, at 11 GCSEs, your DC is likely to be one of only 2% of all examined students taking that number.

It may be that the school feels it cannot use the freed up time productively for your DS's Eng Lang needs and, in part, because of supervision requirements and impact on the motivation of other students. However, if that is the case, they should discuss this honestly with you honestly rather than hide behind the made up 'imperative' of the Ebacc.

poetryandwine · 23/03/2023 18:12

Thank you for this compelling statistic, @PerpetualOptimist .

OP, dropping RE brings your DS down to the top one tenth of one per cent in terms of number of GCSEs. 999/1000 pupils are still doing fewer exams than he is. And he is undergoing diagnosis for a processing disorder. He should not even be amongst the top 2% with 11 GCSEs. Again I agree with @PerpetualOptimist that to maximise his chances of a 5 on English Language he should drop Eng Lit and max out at 10 exams.

Not one reason you have quoted makes any sense from the perspective of Russell Group STEM admissions. Admittedly I am not at Oxbridge but even Oxford don’t need 12 GCSEs. They do care about grades. (Cambridge don’t care about the EBacc for STEM applicants. They just want high achieving STEM, STEM and more STEM.)

NoNotHimTheOtherOne · 23/03/2023 18:35

Studying a humanity forms part of the EBac which universities like

Geography is not a humanity, although it seems it might be classified as such within the schools system. At university, geography is a science and/or a social science.

Universities take no notice whatsoever of the "English Baccalaureate".

Margrethe · 23/03/2023 20:58

11 GCSEs is more than enough. It’s a standard number for academically elite, private schools.

Your DS is taking English, photography and music, so his GCSEs are balanced, it is not all STEM.

I would drop RE and Geography and focus on his English. Getting at least a 5 in English is important.

I am an ambitious mum of two high achieving DDs, one of which is dyslexic. I would hands-down drop RE and Geography. The school’s advice is hard to understand. It’s not at all sensible.

OnTh3Up · 23/03/2023 21:07

Thank you everyone. It's really helpful to have your input.

I will let the school know that my son definitely does want to withdraw from the geography exams as well as RE (we discussed it all with him again tonight- well- he read the letter from the school- we said are you sure you want to drop it- he said definitely).

I'll let you know what happens. I really don't want a battle. Just common sense in this particular set of circumstances.

OP posts:
Margrethe · 23/03/2023 21:09

…sorry, feeling very cross and just want to add that I feel the school is exploiting your DS rather than considering his best interests.

Go ahead and be angry, if it gives you the strength to push back at the school to protect him.

poetryandwine · 23/03/2023 21:29

OP,

I don’t want to stress either you or DS - and I’m not stalking you, I just happened to be on MN and the notification popped up - but the 5 in Eng Lang opens up choices for him. Have you thought about whether dropping Eng Lit would help him achieve this? I just don’t see why someone going through his diagnostic process needs to be in the top 2% of pupils in terms of no of exams taken. No uni with the possible exception of Oxford will care, and Oxford prefers high grades to high no of exams anyway. He doesn’t need Oxford to be highly successful.

I recognise that if DS is best served by dropping Eng Lit, then how to accomplish this is a separate question. I am just asking what you, and he, would prefer. Assuming he isn’t concerned about being perceived as a quitter, because from a university perspective that’s just nonsense. We’re so eager for talented, motivated STEM students. Your DS appears to be one in the making, who may yet fall to a barrier that’s not just artificial but frankly stupid. He deserves better.

@PerpetualOptimist what say you?

ninja · 23/03/2023 21:38

Drop them both and with predications like that so further maths A Level to keep his options open!

OnTh3Up · 23/03/2023 21:57

@poetryandwine
That's ok! Your advice has been greatly appreciated.
I think asking to drop English Lit. as well would be a bridge too far! Still not cracked geography.! The three geography exams are all on the same day as other exams whereas English lit aren't.

OP posts:
PinaColadaBaby · 23/03/2023 22:31

Sorry to hear they won’t let your son drop Geography. We were in this position last year as DC wanted to drop an EBacc subject after a dismal mock. School refused twice (tutor and head of 6th form) so we emailed the head teacher and cc’d Chair of Governors effectively saying (very politely) that DC and we were not asking permission to be withdrawn, rather that we must insist that DC be withdrawn! Chair of Governors replied instantly saying she would discuss with Head. Sorted by the end of the day. Good luck OP!

poetryandwine · 23/03/2023 22:37

But you know your DS best, OP.

Ask why the school isn’t prioritising your son’s chances for a 5 in English Language and the life choices that will give him.

PerpetualOptimist · 24/03/2023 07:25

@poetryandwine are in synch on the ideal, but I think you are right to focus on what is achievable, @OnTh3Up, which is to withdraw from Geog as well as RE. I then think your dialogue needs to move to how the school can best help your DS use the freed up time to boost Eng Lang - that is a practical priority but also signals you are not simply looking to slice away GCSEs.

Sometimes these things are about tapping into the psychology. If your DS's school is obsessed about Ebacc, then it is probably obsessed about Russell Group status. Make the point that helping your son push Eng Lang decisively into 5 hugely increases the chance he can do STEM at the kind of Russell Group uni they will approve of (note: I am not saying RG are better/worse but simply suggesting you use the school's own perceptions to achieve an objective).

poetryandwine · 24/03/2023 07:59

Brilliant, @PerpetualOptimist . I like your approach much better than my negative question. I am awfully busy and rather stressed at the moment and I am afraid it is showing here.

In practical terms it would appear that this support can most effectively come from losing another exam, unless the school can find extra hours in the day. I think quoting the 2% figure for 12 (?) exams from @PerpetualOptimist could be very useful, especially in light of DS’s current issues.

I agree that non-Russell Group unis may be the best choices even for some very strong applicants but, OP, we want your DS to have as many choices as possible. That 5 in Eng Lang is for his future. The school only needs him to get a 4, I think. This is surely part of their thinking.

I also agree that playing the Russell Group card with an academy may help. Good luck

PerpetualOptimist · 24/03/2023 08:17

Your advice is always very measured, poetry. OP, here is a link to the data on GCSEs (need to scroll down to the relevant table):
https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/infographic-gcse-results-2022/infographics-for-gcse-results-2022-accessible
Frame your requirements as 'let's help DS open up the widest choice of RG unis for a STEM course' (an objective of which they will approve) and away from 'let DS drop subjects' (which is what they are currently hearing and is an objective of which they clearly disapprove).

Phphion · 24/03/2023 19:30

I would suggest your DS (with your help) contact a few admissions tutors at the kind of calibre of university your DS is aiming for and ask if they could advise informally (stress informally, as often admissions tutors won't give formal advice on issues that are not completely clear cut and will just give a standard blurb or refer you to existing publicly available generic guidance) about a) how they would view the breadth of his GCSEs if he drops both RE and geography given the other subjects he is taking, and b) how would they view him (also) dropping English lit. This would help him in his decision about where to focus his attention and is also information he can show to the school. I suggest contacting a few admissions tutors because practice across universities will vary, particularly when you add in his recognised processing difficulties.

To give you an example, at the university where I work, if he dropped all three of RE, geography and English lit, he would have a just about acceptable but not very strong GCSE profile, particularly in context if everyone in his school is also taking many GCSEs.

Our formal guidance specifically states that we do not require applicants to have completed the EBacc, but this is accompanied by a much vaguer statement about expecting applicants to have "a range of subjects" with good grades at GCSE and to demonstrate "a broad general education" and elsewhere we say that we consider "your overall subject profile". How an admission tutor would interpret 'a range of subjects' or a 'broad general education' is open to question and he is missing not only a humanity/social science but also an MFL, so if he dropped RE, geography and English lit, he would basically just be offering maths, sciences and creative arts with what we would consider "good grades" (and one English with a not so good grade).

There is also a question about how much credit he would be given for his large number of GCSEs. In my own department, we are not keen on statistics when taken alongside maths (and further maths) or engineering when taken alongside physics. Having multiple instances of these kinds of substantially overlapping subjects is less of an issue at GCSE than it is at A Level (where we specifically state that this is undesirable and would generally exclude one of the overlapping subjects from offers), but we also wouldn't give as much credit for them as we would for non-overlapping subjects as we don't view them as requiring a similar level of work or as demonstrating a diverse range of skills (in my subject we review holistically and don't formally score, so you gain little from having your total number of GCSEs inflated by subjects we have an issue with). So we wouldn't be looking at his GCSE profile and thinking 'well he's still got lots more GCSEs than average' because in our eyes he doesn't really - if he drops all three of RE, geography and English lit, he has the rough equivalent of 8 or 9 GCSEs, which is low-ish average in our applicant cohort.

For CS we would only require a 4 in GCSE English Language, so his grade would be low but fine.

However, at other universities ranked much the same as us, e.g., Imperial, he would just be a straight 'no' because they require a minimum of a 6 in English language as part of their basic entry requirements. On the other hand, Imperial would probably have less concerns about his GCSE subject profile and emphasise that they want to see an interest in maths and science. His large number of GCSEs would be a plus at any university that uses an algorithm just based on total number of GCSEs.

For me the priority would be getting his English language grade up as a 4 is going to limit his university choices the most and a 5 will still rule out some of them and, barring some leniency for his documented processing difficulties, would exclude him from several universities that should otherwise be within his reach. The breadth question is at least open to a bit more interpretation and would only be a little improved by keeping subjects just to offer a more diverse range when his grades in them wouldn't meet the threshold to be considered "good" by the universities he might be interested in attending.

OnTh3Up · 24/03/2023 22:00

@Phphion
Wow! Thank you for such a comprehensive answer! I really appreciate it.

He is carrying on with English Lit- he achieved a 5 in his November mock and he's still got time to revise. He knows the content- he's just not great at the exam questions.

With RE and geography he doesn't really know the content.

I do understand your point about overlapping subjects and maths, statistics and further maths. He's doing all three because he can and it's not really extra work as it's all happening in his maths lessons and he just gets it.

He works hard, and I want him to have a balance. He's got a summer job lined up following on from his work experience placement, he's just started doing some jam nights with his friends (he plays drums- grade 8).

I don't think a highly competitive uni would suit him but he we'll help him with whatever he wants to do. DH and I both did STEM subjects at Russell Group unis.

It's just the combination of circumstances and I'm trying to apply common sense for the best balance and outcome.

OP posts:
poetryandwine · 24/03/2023 23:56

OP,

@Phphion ’s advice to contact relevant admissions tutors informally is excellent, as is the approach she has outlined. However citing that Imperial requires a 6 at Eng Lang GCSE is somewhat beside the point. It is true, but I have spent the last 30 minutes attempting to find another university with the same requirement, and I have not. I have however found more RG universities accepting a 4 than I expected to, so that is good news.

@@Phphion ’s comments about how her university analyses the GCSE profile are perfectly sensible but place that university within a small minority, as does its stated equivalence to Imperial. In the real world, we want your DS to have Russell Group options.

He doesn’t need a COWI (Cambridge Oxford Imperial Warwick) option to be highly successful and have a great life. Not that I am in any way excluding those. These decisions are taken later, if he gets the Eng Lang grade now.

@Phphion ’s post of 03/12/2021 shows her to be an economist. Economics may be currently the most brutally competitive of all subjects for UG admissions. Economists will need to apply filters that STEM school will not.

OnTh3Up · 28/03/2023 10:40

The school have agreed that DS can be withdrawn from geography as well as RE.

They did emphasise that they are concerned about his now narrow range of GCSEs.

I agreed that I didn't think it was ideal either but that he doesn't know the RE or geography curriculum fully and doesn't have time to learn it as well as trying to catch up with his English.

So his suite of GCSEs will be:

English Language
English Literature
Maths
Biology
Chemistry
Physics
Engineering (Cambridge National)
Music
Photography
Statistics
Further Maths (Level 2)

OP posts:
poetryandwine · 28/03/2023 13:09

Relatively good news, OP. Kudos to you for persisting. Though I would still encourage you to consult with an expert beyond the world of MN, or your DS to drop some admissions teams a line, concerning the need for Eng Lit given the personal circumstances of your DS. According to@PerpetualOptimist he is still taking more GCSEs than 98% of his peers. Admissions teams want to help! Brief, well posed enquiries from prospective students themselves always go down best.

My very best wishes to him and I hope he will find a wonderful degree programme he is very enthusiastic about.

OnTh3Up · 28/03/2023 13:38

@poetryandwine
Thank you and thank you for your support

OP posts:
Walkaround · 28/03/2023 16:02

To have music, photography and engineering, it seems quite broad, not narrow, to me - shows he has a creative/practical flair in addition to superior mathematical and scientific abilities. Plenty of candidates have no practical or creative subjects to offer and I really don’t think that is a preferable state of affairs. Doing geography and RE will just accentuate his comparative difficulties with language processing. Better to prove he can overcome the difficulties to a certain extent by really focusing on his English.

OnTh3Up · 28/03/2023 16:05

@Walkaround
Thank you. Those subjects do reflect his interests and he's not the sort of person who would be happy trying to be something he's not. Fingers crossed now he can secure his English.

OP posts:
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