Oxbridge 2024 Entry

[Lightsabre]

Thought I'd start a thread for parents of dc considering Oxbridge applications for entry in Oct 2024 (I don't think there's a current one)? Past threads have been so informative and supportive and hopefully this thread will offer that too. Please feel free to add to the thread if your dc have recently had experience of the process, good, bad or ugly!

One interesting thing that came from a tutor giving a subject talk today - he said that Oxford will likely pay the least attention to the PS of all the universities a DC applies to. So his advice was to forget about them and write it for whichever university is the second choice (assuming Oxford is first choice).

@singingstones very interesting . What subject does the tutor teach or do you think it’s across the board?

It was at a PPL talk, he was from the philosophy dept and colleague from linguistics agreed. He said it applies to all Oxford courses and it's because they test - if you have the grades and do well enough on the test you will have an interview, and they can learn much more about you at interview than by reading the PS, so it's almost irrelevant to them. He said they might use it to start a discussion at interview but that's about it. (He actually said something like "it's very limited, what we can learn about you, or your mum, or chat gpt or whoever has written your PS, that's what the interview is for") 😂

Oxford open day today revealed that they give bugger all regard to essay comps, MOOCs, work experience because all of the above give unfair advantage to private school kids and parents with experience of the system. Fair enough (and I say that as a parent who used private school system at vast cost when my sisters state school son - who hasn’t had an ounce of help - is off to Trniity, Cambridge)

That’s good news on PS actually @singingstones . If it helps anyone else, Exeter Maths department said the same! The comment was “just don’t be stupid and write complete rubbish”.

@Helenaisnew That’s interesting about the essay comps, MOOCs etc. At the college talk we went to, the admissions tutor was recommending all those things to the kids to do over the summer (plus reading)! Although she did also say that how much weight the tutors give these things depends on the subject - I gather that for maths, for instance, they lay more emphasis on the admission test and relatively less on ‘demonstrating passion’

Is anyone going to Cambridge next week? Specifically for NatSci. My DS is particularly interested in chemistry but I see that the taster lecture is 2hours long! Surely that must be a mistake as it will wipe out a considerable part of the day. The earth sciences one is 30 minutes.

Hes been planing to also visit 5 colleges. It’s going to be rather a logistical challenge!

MOOCs, essay comps, work experience etc surely just add to the picture that the student is interested in a subject so it's great if you have the time and/or money to do them - but conversely lack of these things does not mean the student is not interested in the subject but might just represent lack of opportunity.

I can imagine that (for example) a prospective English student could show their interest in the subject by talking about books they had read, TV dramatisations they had watched and the odd podcast they'd listened to (these things being deliberately selected as readily available to the vast majority of students whatever their background). If a prospective English student had done none of these, it would probably be a worry, unless there was particular mitigating circumstances. However, they wouldn't get "extra credit" for "harder to access" things like essay comps, work experience etc.

There's also the element that our young people are hopefully not doing things just to get them into university and that they are exploring these wider opportunities because they want to broaden their horizons and learn more about their subject.

That said my friends DD won quite a relevant essay competition and she recently finished her degree at Oxbridge. So they won't hold it against you. She did not go to private school but went to a state school.

We had a great day at Oxford yesterday- everyone was really warm and welcoming. Found the medical admissions talk helpful, especially the mock interview, which demystified the whole thing a bit. Just getting an interview is a massive achievement though, judging by the numbers (but think that’s the same for all med schools) DD will see how she gets on with BMAT prep and take it from there - sounds like they’re not 100% decided yet on how they will use GCSEs in their shortlisting algorithm.

I have one currently at Cambs and another one probably applying next year. On the subject of the PS, I do wonder... Part of me thinks it's all very well for tutors to say it doesn't matter - but when an unsuccessful candidate requests feedback and they cite something such as 'unconvincing PS' (as I've read about on here in previous years) it will feel as it did matter! It's true that they take a holistic view and everything is contextualised. But how much emphasis is put on interview scores, admissions tests, references and the PS does seem vary subject to subject and I think students have to approach it as if everything 'matters' really, because often it's like splitting hairs between who receives and offer and who doesn't. It's true that some students will have more help with the PS than others, but this is also true of interview prep and admissions test support. They can't disregard everything. Something has to matter!

Also, if applying from a selective independent school, it's worth being realistic that the bar will be set higher and they will need super-curriculars to stand a fighting chance. Top grades will not be enough. The PS can be particularly important in Cambs colleges where they do a 'general interview' (as well as a subject interview) because general interviews are often carried out by a general admissions tutor and they will use the PS as the basis for discussion. A more interesting PS will make for a more interesting / memorable interview.

I'm sure people know this anyway, but they shouldn't just list things they have read or done. Rather, say what they gained from it and what it led on to next - eg. maybe something in research for a piece of coursework or an EPQ research led to another area of interest and inspired an essay competition entry, or to watch an online lecture series, or to become involved in an organisation / charity etc etc etc. Anyway, this is Cambridge, but just wanted to mention those few things, having been through this process with DC and seen their friends go through it in recent years.

Just to clarify, it was an Oxford tutor who said to write the PS for your second choice. Firstly they will be looking for more or less the same thing, but mostly because it won't make a difference to whether or not you get an Oxford offer - they choose who to interview based on grades and test scores, and then the PS (which could have been written by anyone) pales into insignificance compared to real life you at interview.

I'm sure Cambridge and other universities approach things differently. And obviously with four other choices it makes sense to do it as well as possible. His point was not to focus on Oxford when you do.

Hi Turnips we're doing the same. I haven't looked at the two hour taster session. Is this at a particular college please?

Hi @Lightsabre

Chemistry
Sample Lecture
Date
6 and 7 July 2023
Time
14:30-16:30
More info
Location: Wolfson Lecture Theatre, Dept of Chemistry

https://www.undergraduate.study.cam.ac.uk/events/cambridge-open-days/programme/subjects

@Lightsabre
if you click on NatSci then you can look at the individual subjects like biology , earth sciences etc

Thank you @LoveTurnips! Yes, that will take up a chunk of time and there's a lot of other stuff too by the look of it. I wonder if they have to book in? Another exhausting day ahead.

For those concerned about elitism, DD spent a significant part of her politics interview discussing Kim Kardashian, Dr Who & parallel universes in her philosophy interview and car parks in her economics interview. Not a MOOC, essay competition or letter published in the Economist to be seen in her PS. She's waiting for the results of her finals now.

Just popping on to say that we spoke at length to admissions about the Oxford process which I personally think is clearer and less subjective/opaque than Cambridge’s. DD is looking at History so the process is:

1. HAT score. There is a line below which your application is very unlikely to be progressed.
2. Your GCSE results contextualised in relation to the whole year school results. All 9’s at school where not all students average 5 good passes will score higher in the algorithm than those who got all 9’s in a year where the scores are mainly all 8’s or 9’s
3. Predicted grades meeting the likely offer requirement of the course (and that the subjects taken meet the requirements of the course)
4. Your home postcode in relation to how many students at 18 go on to attend university in your area. Not many going on will score more highly than an area where most kids go onto University.
5. Your PS will then be looked at in relation to the course subject and your teacher reference.
6. A subject interview during which your PS is discussed. You will have more than one interview for a joint honours (so PPE will mean 3 interviews for example)
7. They are clear work experience is only really relevant for medicine and obviously understanding that this is hard to come by.

All in all it seems fair enough. Regardless of your school type, the applicant needs to be bright/top quartile of the year and have a genuine interest in the subject beyond their A level course (if relevant) It is very likely that an applicant will be pooled in the event of oversubscription to a specific college for a specific subject. I.e if Christchurch has 10 History places, after these are filled, they will pool the applicants they would have offered places to had they had more spaces. If a student is reading History with say, French then the history element is 1/2 a place (if that makes sense) of the 10 available spaces so a college may have 10 spaces filled with 5 single honour history students and then 10 filled with History + another subject making 10 ‘whole’ places. They do not care if you are from a state or indie school, the criteria is the criteria. Personally I think that enough contextualisation is in place to ensure that there is smoothing across all school types. Clearly it is harder and a greater achievement to attain an A at an underfunded school in an area where the social economic outlook is poorer than a wealthier one and their system rightly reflects that. They do stress that admission aptitude tests cannot be tutored for and are at pains to signpost all students to past papers.

I can’t make Cambridge next week but would be interested if anyone can decode their admissions process which in the absence of anything else does seem to hinge on the predicted A level grades/GCSES and PS? beyond the 2024 applicants I can’t see how they’ll filter this as the PS is likely to have been removed entirely by then?

I don’t think that the PS is disappearing for the cadre below this, rather changing from an open chunk of text to a series of shorter responses to prompt questions.

re history, in the last few years the gcse contextualisation calculation was also applied to the HAT result, so if the candidate went to a high achieving school, they had to do better at the HAT. I haven’t checked if that remains the case this year as don’t have a history kid this time.

re history, in the last few years the gcse contextualisation calculation was also applied to the HAT result, so if the candidate went to a high achieving school, they had to do better at the HAT. I haven’t checked if that remains the case this year as don’t have a history kid this time

That is very interesting, how can we find out the criteria for this?

I don't think Cambridge is that different. They have written assessments and test for some subjects and this seems to be increasing. They also require you to submit coursework/essays. They also look at contextualised GCSEs and predicted A levels/IB. Also look at PS and as somebody else has said I think the replacement is with a serious of shorted questions. Also do multiple interviews. The big difference is that Cambridge standard offers tend to be a bit higher. My daughter has taken the IB and got an offer pending and it would be so much less stressful if the equivalent standard offer from Oxford (although in her case there is no equivalent Oxford subject).

https://www.undergraduate.study.cam.ac.uk/applying/contextual-data

Out of interest why do you care? Can't really change anything you might do other than not apply I guess if you think this might make things too hard.

I care because my son is applying for History at Oxford for 2024, he got 3 A*s in his year 12 mocks but does not have the standard of GCSE grades you would expect for reasons that may or may not be covered by this criteria.

If this might apply to your child I would think you would also care.

My child didn't go to a school at all because there was no school that could meet his SEN needs for secondary. I would say that that is a fairly unusual set of circumstances.

I thought you meant the real specific as to how they do the calculation. You really can't get under the hood of that and not much you can do. Presume you've seen this:

https://www.ox.ac.uk/admissions/undergraduate/applying-to-oxford/decisions/contextual-data

I don't really know about SEN but there is an option to declare disabilities on UCAS and Oxford suggests mention special circumstances on PS and to get referees to mention as well.

https://www.ox.ac.uk/admissions/undergraduate/applying-to-oxford/guidance-disabled-applicants

"Will the impact of my condition on my exam results be taken into account? The University recognises that students sometimes fail to achieve their potential on their first attempt at school or college because of circumstances beyond their control (including ill health). We take care to treat each application individually and would always take such mitigating circumstances into account if they are brought to our attention.
Applicants may like to mention these circumstances in their personal statement and the referee could also do so. However, while difficult personal circumstances will be taken into account, they do not guarantee shortlisting for interview or lead to a lower conditional offer."

All you can do is declare everything and cross your fingers.