Modern Languages at uni - avoiding literature!

[Stringbean70]

My DS is in Y12 and doing Spanish and French A-levels (alongside media). He's starting to look at uni options (envisages he will be predicted ABB) and is keen to study modern languages - French, Spanish and probably ab initio Portuguese. He seems to think that by taking Portuguese (a third language) he will be able to cut down on literature modules and his teachers have advised him to give Oxbridge and York a swerve as they are literature heavy (not that he has the grades for Oxbridge anyway!). As we're London based, he also wants to avoid London unis. Anyway, these are the universities on his list and I should be very grateful of any info as to the language departments and the MFL degrees there:

Exeter
Nottingham
Birmingham
Sheffield
Surrey
Southampton
Swansea

As I say, he is keen to avoid literature - more interested in film and other cultural modules!

Somebody may have mentioned this already but he may be looking at the wrong degrees. If he doesn’t want literature, he needs to be looking at language degrees ie. Not at “Language & Literature” or “English and (insert other language). These are often hiding in linguistics departments, not English ones

@Annasoror thanks for popping on this thread - I got an alert as it hasn’t been posted on for a while. Exeter is high on DS’s list - loved the open day. Swansea also up there - but can only do two languages. Visited Lancaster and he was not a fan of the campus or the (quite restricted) course. His teacher is suggesting Liverpool as they do three languages and v flexible (entirely poss to avoid literature and they do modules like French cuisine and fashion!) so we will book in an open day in Sept/Oct

I did languages at Swansea many years ago, so things have probably changed now. I did no literature for French, I think I did an extended language option, IT in France, and the use of French around the world, all of which were interesting. I did do some literature for German, but not much. I did extended language again, literature from the national socialism era and an option about German philosophers that was really difficult, and I regretted choosing it!

I remember some people did three languages, but perhaps that has changed now.

Sheffield has a three-language course. Surrey make a selling point of their students not needing to do any literature, and their BBB offer may appeal.
Portsmouth is also worth a visit. Although a 92 group uni, its languages courses are applied, and have a long and proud history.
It may be a little far, but Heriot-Watt, outside Edinburgh, offers Applied Languages and iinterpreting/ translating. (Which are not expected to die out any time soon).

Predicted grades will be key: Exeter, Bristol, Manc, etc will reject automatically if predicted grades are below the stated entry requirements of AAB. (I'm a UCAS Adviser, and see this a lot). They just have too many applications, even for minority courses like Languages.
Cardiff will offer ABB, and covert it to BBB if firmed - provided predictions are in line with the ABB.
Some other unis, eg Soton, Sheffield, will make a lower offer OR make the higher offer, but still be more likely to accept you if you miss by a grade.

I did an MFL degree 20 years ago so things will have moved on since then but what strikes me about me and the friends on my course is that we left uni completely unprepared for the world of work. Other than myself who teaches MFL, not one of my friends do jobs where they use their languages. I loved studying two languages and the experience of my year abroad but I feel it left me totally unprepared for any career (or maybe the nonexistent careers advice at my uni was the problem!) With hindsight, I should have studied my main language alongside something like business, law or some other work related subject. I will always champion the study of languages and always encourage my students to take them as far as they can but it's important to think about what you're going to do with them afterwards. Good luck to your son, I hope he enjoys uni!

@mrswaldron Many Students have never seen MFL as defining what they do at work. That’s why it’s foolhardy to avoid harder options such as literature. It’s frankly changing the degree to vocational from academic. Teaching MFL at school won’t remotely care of course because it’s a vocational option. Neither does anyone need three MFL. Just dilutes everything including the year abroad.

The best courses are still academic. This gives MFL grads a huge choice of careers due to transferable skills. DD did a Law conversion course snd is now a barrister after her MFL degree. She knew that’s what she wanted and didn’t want a law degree. Others we know have done similar. They did know what they wanted post MFL. It helps when others think the same at uni and there’s a strong academic MFL course to hone skills.

Manchester was not overly competitive for MFL. When dd went to an offer day they openly said they could be flexibly but this might depend on MFL studied I think. All these new courses and the move away from academic mfl is because they are not getting the brightest students! They have tailored the courses to meet demand. That’s too many students who won’t read!

I also think that a lot of MFL students feel discouraged because there are so many native speakers who take MFL at A level and degree level.

That said, one of DD's friends who is half Brazillian, and speaks fluent Portuguese, albeit with the the Braziallian dialect, has found her MFL course (Portuguese and Spanish) at Newcastle very challenging. Entry requirements are ABB.

@RampantIvy This will depend on the core of the course snd options chosen. Lots of MFL courses are ABB but some have kept their academic nature. Often this suits students who have strong essay A levels and are prepared to work at literature. Others who just want MFL light should really be elsewhere. I do think native speakers have some advantages but not so much if they don’t write essays well and are not in the habit of reading.

Translation work has been badly affected by Google Translate etc, and interpreting tends to be freelance, insecure and badly paid.
The universities shouldn't be accepting native speakers. My DC's university doesn't.

DD has grown up trilingual in the uk - neither DH or I were born in the uk hence French and Flemish being spoken with English. She attended an international school in the uk so that we could maintain high levels in all languages.
DD studied MFL at Uni in the UK - where do you think she should have attended?
She graduated with a 1st and now employed by the EU in Brussels having also completed post grad qualifications. Highly paid as a conference translator with accreditation in six languages.

@Parker231 I don't think that young people should go to university to study THEIR OWN MOTHER TONGUE, but studying it AS A FOREIGN LANGUAGE with a peer group who are still learning the language (A'level is a low level). If French is their mother tongue, and they love French and want to study French literature etc, then why not study it in France with other French-speaking people and stretch themselves a bit? That's what university is for. My DC is studying modern foreign languages at a top UK university, and the university makes it clear on the website that native speakers shouldn't apply. I'm not surprised that your DC got a first - she had a huge advantage over the people the course was actually designed for. Unless of course she was studying different languages - not those she was already fluent in - but I assume not, from the tone of your post. Perhaps she did study one new foreign language, but even so.
Thanks for the boast about her having a high-flying interpreting career. My post about interpreting being badly paid and insecure was aimed at UK citizens who don't have an EU passport and 2 non-English mother tongues (the great majority of UK citizens, surprisingly enough). My DC would love to be an EU interpreter, but Brexit has taken that option away from her, so that it would probably make no sense for her to train to be an interpreter, despite that being her original ambition.
Not every post is aimed at your daughter's precise personal circumstances, believe it or not, and a little bit of understanding about the circumstances of most people who are on Mumsnet wouldn't hurt.

@Userwoozer Great post. Generally the people who live here, then use uni to study their mother tongue, do not challenge themselves. You don’t find the Chinese studying Mandarin here. European languages - completely different story! They often get away with it because one parent has a British surname that’s used by Dc. Therefore the international identity of the family is hidden. Believe me, universities do not care or ask. Not even Oxford. As you can see, international people use our universities and very much cover up the advantages their Dc have had.

I totally agree that a vocational job after a MFL degree is either reserved for the well connected or someone who doesn’t need to earn much. Most dc should aim for something else based on their skills. That’s why greater skills to compete with, say, history grads, is very important. They don’t refuse to read and research info.

@Userwoozer Mn is made up of individual experiences and opinions so it’s obviously personal.
DD was born in the UK and had only lived in the uk, so why shouldn’t she attend a uk Uni? She’s never lived in France- none of us have. She gained her French language skills from DH - French Canadian who came to the uk on a scholarship when he was 21.

There is nothing as such with your DD studying MFL for her UG Parker, but a recognition that her native grasp of french is what posters are saying puts off their DC from studying MFL at advanced levels. Understandable if she'd studied other languages alongside her native tongue like they do at my DD's non UK uni, but as there are other elements to a degree besides the language alone, I can understand why it's an attractive option for your DD, even if you do not recognise her advantage.

I don't have a problem with it myself, as similar can be said of DC who have parents that are maths grads, or medics etc and their DC choose to follow, some knowledge will be innately passed down. But as well as native speakers being a disincentive for some students, it can also help them to up their game. My DD has had the privilege of studying a suite of languages at school where some students only get the choice of 1 or 2, so whilst she's been in a cohort of majority native speakers, she's at least had access vs none. And had gotten over her personal chip of not being good enough vs them.

It all evens out at UG level anyway with so many other elements of the degree in play, but the problem is within the UK, getting non-natives to get to that stage given the declines of language take up and teaching at school level.

As an aside, it may be that mine had a natural interest in English lit and history, given that she did them at A level, but she feels that literature is integral to new language learning and would have struggled to get to the level she is without it. But that is her, everyone learns differently.

OP - If your DS is able to think about whether he wants to use his newly acquired language skills vocationally, or just the course transferable skills in the workplace, that may help him filter out course suitability. The level of language competence he wants to come away will all be subject to the course detail he settles for.

2 Bs will never swing it at Exeter.

It will. AAB or ABB. Bristol is ABB so anyone with common sense would go there. Better for MFL and Exeter often asks for grades in MFL but takes a pragmatic view. As many universities do. There are not enough high grade achievers around.

BB is fine for Exeter and most unis - so long as you have an A too. ABB is standard offer for languages there.

OP, if your DS wants to avoid lit, then look at modern languages degrees with ‘translation’ in the title (assuming your dS likes translation) - you do the translation/interpreting modules instead of the cultural ones. I wouldn’t recommend translation as a career though!

Has he had further thoughts about his options since you posted your thread, Stringbean?

I know that you mentioned French, Spanish and Portuguese, but I was wondering whether he would consider something like BA Russian and Spanish, with the Russian ab initio. UCL offer this:

https://www.ucl.ac.uk/prospective-students/undergraduate/degrees/russian-and-spanish-ba-2023

I suggest this as someone who has a degree in Modern Languages (German and French) and who is aware of how demand has changed over the last few decades.

Even back in the dark ages you could largely avoid literature at Oxbridge by doing the linguistics strand.

Fwiw OP the school is wrong to be writing translation and interpreting off. I have been working in this area for 25 years and while the sector is changing there will still be work for humans - especially on the language tech / engineering side which he would be able to get into at MA level if interested. Feel free to DM me.

Also Parker321 you calling your daughter a cinference translator is making my teeth itch, sorry. She is a conference interpreter. Two entirely different skill sets.

Apologies - I’m sure DD would also correct me! Her post grad course was in Conference Interpreting. She’s loving her job and the opportunities.

Good for her 😊