Scottish? Don’t bother applying for law at Edinburgh unless you live in a deprived area!

[Shelefttheweb]

The funding of Scottish students tuition fees in Scotland is restricted and has remained the same since 2010 so that limits the number of university places available to Scottish students in Scotland. There are also systems of priority applicants with those living in the 20% most deprived areas (which only counts for about 20% of most deprived families - others live in more mixed areas) or care experienced, refugees etc The highest group get guaranteed entry to courses. This means that on certain courses (eg law at Edinburgh) no one outside a priority group stood a chance of getting a place regardless of how good a candidate they were.

www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-edinburgh-east-fife-64247475

We are looking at applying to university soon and I am seriously considering following this mother in this article doing FOI requests to see if there is any point in my son applying for certain courses. No point wasting options on Scottish universities if he was never going to get in.

@cantba
Is that not effectively what’s happening. Not sure English/Welsh students are getting into Edinburgh much either. Overseas pay more so they subsidise more.

it’s also about taking control of the country. Stacking your own supporters in the judiciary, for example. You do see this in nationalist regimes and the USA of course. It’s a one way ticket to a one party state.

Also: There’s no reason at all for others in the uk to study law in Scotland. I’m not sure how other legal jurisdictions see Scottish law degrees but they would have to align one would think. English law is observed in quite a few countries but not sure about Scottish law. Of course overseas students may well not want to work in law and just want the course. It would be interesting to know how many overseas students are doing Scottish law.

It isn’t - the majority of deprived students do not live in the selected postcodes by the governments own figures. The spaces are reserved for those from specific postcodes regardless of their individual deprivation. And there are no paid for spaces for Scottish students, only English/Welsh/NI and overseas students. I agree it would be better for all students to pay and Scottish students to get a grant based on income.

English students are effectively cost neutral to universities. Whereas the Scottish government does not give enough for Scottish students so they have to be subsidised by overseas students from whom the universities turn a profit. So it is not simply a matter of giving overseas places to Scottish students - overseas students are needed to subside the Scottish places funded by government and the government isn’t prepared to fund more places. They need to allow Scottish students to pay like English students.

And it isn’t just Law this is happening for.

@Shelefttheweb i'm agreeing with you. I think its ridiculous. Admission to university should be entirely on merit with some accomodation for the disadvantaged. Politicising university admissions is hugely dangerous in my view.

There’s no reason at all for others in the uk to study law in Scotland

www.abdn.ac.uk/study/undergraduate/degree-programmes/?q=law&view=detailed

www.gla.ac.uk/undergraduate/degrees/commonlaw/

www.dundee.ac.uk/subjects/law?utm_medium=paid%20search&utm_source=google&utm_campaign=google%20ruk%20always%20on%202023%20-%20558549&utm_content=law&utm_term=law%20degree%20scotland&gclid=CjwKCAiA2rOeBhAsEiwA2Pl7Q0Vr0DbOzbmbVvhQutVjAt0nJPlP99DEtasEQMnrIeSy25s_SXcc0hoCwz8QAvD_BwE&gclsrc=aw.ds

No 'need', perhaps, but if for some reason they actually want to study in Scotland, some universities do offer degrees based on the English system.

Also handy for Scottish students who fancy having their degree paid for then popping off to London to work?

@MarchingFrogs Those courses are money spinners aren’t they. No one remotely needs to study law in Scotland if you want to work in England. Overseas student cash cow is what these courses are. And what good are they for the excluded Scottish students?

If students are truly disadvantaged, they get a full loan. Maybe a bursary too. So they are often better off than students who have parents who don’t cough up. So giving them an extra boost with accommodation reserved for them seems ott. There are a lot who get all this extra funding who don’t really deserve it. It’s pretty easy to get a full loan and bursary if you know how.

Edinburgh Uni law has historically been the preserve of the privately educated or at least more affluent DC. Surely that was unfair too? Maybe this system is not perfect but at least attempts are being made to try to tackle the imbalance. How much is the strong feeling on this thread really about some poorer DC being excluded? They would have been disadvantaged before contextual offers in any case. It is a real challenge for all universities to get balanced widening participation mechanisms that are workable. Looking at Edinburgh's, there are plenty of lower performing schools/less affluent postcodes on the plus flag list at least across the central belt and outside Glasgow. The bigger issue here is the lack of places for Scottish DC because of inadequate government payments to cover their fees. If students paying their own fees is off limits, there needs to be higher overseas fees to subsidise more places for Scottish DC.

If they want to follow this policy then Edinburgh University MUST make it clear in their entry criteria that unless you live in the correct (mostly central belt) postcode, attend specific central belt schools, are care experienced or a refugee then do not select Edinburgh University as your application will be binned without any further consideration.

Higher overseas fees to study law in Scotland? Why would anyone pay this? I have no doubt overseas students like Edinburgh snd some have bottomless pockets, but they can apply to any English speaking university anywhere in the world. So if Edinburgh isn’t competitively priced or seen as value for money, getting more from foreign students to prop up Scottish government policy might not be greeted with all round enthusiasm!

All UK universities make money from overseas students. I expect it is the same elsewhere in the world too that universities operate commercially making a profit from their product with home students receiving various levels of subsidy. They are businesses. Being competitive is not just about price either - having a ‘premium brand’ and universally recognised degrees means a university can charge more.

Agreed @Shelefttheweb . Of course all universities make money from overseas students. Look at the international fees for some of the others. IMO English students already contribute to the perception of Edinburgh being a premium brand as it is often next on the list along with Durham and St Andrews for those who miss out on an Oxbridge place.

@TizerorFizz not higher overseas fees to specifically study law in Scotland, higher overseas fees across their courses to boost coffers so that groups of Scottish students don't miss out and places for them aren't artificially restricted by government policy on paying fees. I'm not saying no fees is the right thing but if you have a government policy that doesn't look like it is going away then you have to think of pragmatic alternatives. As far as whether overseas students would pay a bit more to study at Edinburgh, I think you could only let the market decide that.

It would take even more places away from home students, surely? Is that desirable? I’m not saying no overseas students but lots more, or even higher fees, could be counter productive. English students don’t pay overseas fees so presumably someone would lose out if international student numbers increased? If the market can stand international fees being a lot higher, so be it. However has it been tested? Edinburgh isn’t that high up in league tables.

How would it take more places away from home students if the unit cost of an overseas place increased? That would just bring in more money for the same number of places. Maybe there is capacity for the overall numbers to be expanded on some courses. I don't know the answers and no one is saying that it has been tested, it's just an idea. Edinburgh ranks very well in a lot of the league tables. I think it is just under the radar and possibly too far away for a lot of Southerners.

its not really “correcting an imbalance” saying that kids have to go to one group of schools to get in or live in a certain post code. The fact that NO STUDENTS AT ALL who don’t go to these schools ranked as disadvantaged or live in certain post codes isn’t progressive or equality. It’s just replacing one unfair advantage with another.

the school I went to as a child is on the list such that you would get a lower offer. But there were always plenty of kids from middle class backgrounds who did well there (and still are). Why should they get an unfair advantage?

it’s a blunt tool and I doubt it’s addressing disadvantage. Just letting some game the system and damaging meritocratic entry.

@Perfectionista
I was thinking about increasing overseas students but not increasing overall numbers. This makes it tougher for home and uk students to get places. As many universities have already expanded and cannot house students, I think further expansion is questionable. But money talks!

How far south are you talking about? As I said earlier, English students fear not getting an offer. They have lots of other choices. It’s not off the radar. It’s just a bit risky. Even Scottish dC we know in England couldn’t get in. It’s very desirable and not off any radar.

There is an article in The Times Scotland section today discussing this concern.

Thanks @Workerbeep. I've just had read it - a really useful summary of the topic on this thread.

Link: www.thetimes.co.uk/article/a53c45b0-9b66-11ed-8201-2ed91f44d1e8?shareToken=eadc8a959f10de8ac2d0abfd4b5d161c

@SueVineer I agree. There is a place for contextual offers for genuine disadvantage and there will be mismatches however it is done. But there is no place for a system where no-one gets a non-contextual offer for courses like this. I know some other universities use contextual schools lists but they ringfence contextual offers. A high contextual target would be more like 40%.

Thanks for the link to The Times. The problem is that 0% of Scottish students get a place at a good university for some subjects unless deprived/flagged. If it were like Oxbridge where I think 20% of children go to private scool at sixth form and get 30% of the places that is not particularly unbalanced compared to their % in general population. If it were 0% of the 20% who go to private schools get into Oxbridge it would be like Scotland and unfair. one of my now trainee solicitor sons had Edinburgh as his backup if he did not get the grades for Bristol (where he went - he didn't law first) and Edinburgh is a really good university. I think they should make the % of Scottish students fairer eg for law if 10% of people are deprived then 10% of the places for home students might be held back for those deprvied / flagged and the other 90% of places be freely competed for by all Scottish students.

@Aphrathestorm I agree the postcode is the wrong way to assess anyway, it doesn’t work.

My car insurance just went up £80py even though I’ve moved to a nicer little village, because the start of the postcode also includes a council estate. I assume using postcodes to assess socioeconomic status will have the same problem.

@Xenia there is merit in that idea.
However seeing as only about 4% of Scottish pupils attend private school I would extend it so that only 4% of funded places at university are available for those attending fee paying schools.

Some nice stereotyping there regarding your car insurance eh @Babooshka1990 ?

@bguthb90
The point being made is that’s what the insurance company algorithms pump out. Not that @Babooshka1990 agreed with it! It’s postcodes that influence decisions whether we like the reasoning or not. Insurance is about risk so where you live is taken into account! Whether you like it or not.