Scottish? Don’t bother applying for law at Edinburgh unless you live in a deprived area!

[Shelefttheweb]

The funding of Scottish students tuition fees in Scotland is restricted and has remained the same since 2010 so that limits the number of university places available to Scottish students in Scotland. There are also systems of priority applicants with those living in the 20% most deprived areas (which only counts for about 20% of most deprived families - others live in more mixed areas) or care experienced, refugees etc The highest group get guaranteed entry to courses. This means that on certain courses (eg law at Edinburgh) no one outside a priority group stood a chance of getting a place regardless of how good a candidate they were.

www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-edinburgh-east-fife-64247475

We are looking at applying to university soon and I am seriously considering following this mother in this article doing FOI requests to see if there is any point in my son applying for certain courses. No point wasting options on Scottish universities if he was never going to get in.

GDL is being phased out but there is overlap at present

Edinburgh University should have made it clear that they wouldn’t be accepting students from non-deprived post codes. My DD applied for law at Edinburgh in the 2021 cohort and she could have used that UCAS spot for another university had she know that she had no chance of being accepted regardless of her academic achievements. My daughter ended up with one offer at Strathclyde for a non-law course, which came late; she came away thinking she wasn’t good enough and she also had to overcome a small stroke six months before she sat her highers. (Her school held exams, under exam conditions as normal). She didn’t apply for any courses in Glasgow as my son went there and didn’t have a great experience.

She is happy and it’s probably been for the best. Edinburgh will perhaps let a few more students from non-deprived areas next year but I think it will still be small.

i have seen so many comments about how this is brilliant and tough luck for the rich and privileged people. This isn’t affecting rich or privileged people, it’s affecting state-educated kids who just happen to live in non-deprived areas. Rich kids from private schools are more likely to have the means to go to England. I agree with widening access but I think the criteria needs to be more nuanced than it is.

i also think the cap on Scottish students is the major issue here. I also despise how Sturgeon framed this as good news. She has failed Scottish Education and rather than widening access for University, she should be looking at how to help kids from poor households at Primary/start of high school age; instead she is framing this as good news because she has failed and doesn’t want to draw attention to it!

i don’t know if this is true, but I heard that lawyers who go to Caledonia university in Glasgow actually know about the realities of practicing law and some of them come from working in law firms, whereas Edinburgh law is a lot of theory and isn’t as relevant to actually practicing it. As I said , that may be a pile of crap. 😂

Sorry about your daughter. The government have this all wrong. Instead of widening access they’ve narrowed it.

They could have made a decision to open up domestic places, shrink overseas ones and start student loans. Or tax billionaires to fund it.

@Loumo
I can only talk about England, but the practical side of law is what you do as a trainee or pupil barrister. The lower graded universities here have very small numbers getting either of the two qualification routes above. Universities boast about all sorts of things: mock courts, actual lawyers coming in etc but they don’t get the big firms coming to careers events snd you cannot turn out attractive grad lawyers just because they were taught by lawyers. In effect, it’s not remotely a practical degree. You also have applicants from very many highly intelligent grads who have not studied law. My dd did MFL. Her friends have done history, music, classics and other degrees from the likes of Oxbridge, Bristol, and Durham. Many have first class degrees. None did a practical law degree.

Therefore if you cannot do a law degree from a top university, do another degree from a top university that is academic. Law is academic at undergrad stage. Courses that are less academic tend to take lower qualified students. They are less likely to get traineeships or pupilage. I don’t know if Edinburgh is just as disastrous for all degrees but by going to England, you are no worse off than English students. Also by going to somewhere like Durham, not harming your career either.

I don’t know if Edinburgh is just as disastrous for all degrees but by going to England, you are no worse off than English students. Also by going to somewhere like Durham, not harming your career either.

unless you want to practice law in Scotland. In which case you need to have studied Scottish law.

Given Edinburgh was advertising to all students and suggesting any student had a chance of a place to study law, was this not false advertising? They should be charged with false and misleading advertising.

I think the point is that if you are quite rich in Scotland you would send your child to do a subject other than law at top place like Durham or Oxbridge, Bristol etc and then they convert to law in scotland after. If you are just an ordinary state school parent (but not deprived) that route is not possible and you are left with lower grade scottish universities as you will not be able to get into Edinburgh

I just did a very quick search of "trainee solicitor" at a good Scottish law firm and found an Aberdeen LLB and and another one too and a Glasgow one LL joint honours with something else... (and a Glasgow one for someone who then moved to London once qualified) Actually I haven't found an Edinburgh U one yet but it was just a quick search.

@Xenia Excuse my ignorance, but why can't normal Scottish state school students go and study at English Universities?

Are they not able to get tuition fee loans ?

They can but they then pay tuition fees like us! Free if they study in Scotland.

@dunnott Yrs, they can get loans. They then have to do an accelerated post grad LLB to practice law in Scotland if they don’t have a law degree from elsewhere I believe. Then they have qualifying exams. It’s a bit convoluted. There are around 3500 studying law in Scotland each year. Apologies if this is wrong but there is a route for grads from English universities.

Yes, I just meant if they study outside Scotland they have to pay the English fees and as the maintenance loan is sometimes about half the cost of rent it does cost some parents quite a bit to make up the difference so it is cheaper to study in Scotland. www.ucas.com/finance/student-finance-scotland

Well it would be if Dc could get on a course.

This may be slightly off topic and many are not aware …

I have heard of so many Scottish students especially in science disciplines, who after their undergraduate degree, undertake a masters postgraduate study/degree.
Scottish students pay, Scot gov do not pick up the tab; these can be in the region of 15k, excluding living costs. Many undergraduates feel they need this to secure competitive PhD funding.

Friends of my DC who have gone on to science PhDs have usually done integrated masters (no fees for Scottish students) and then applied for PhD funding. Have heard of a few people (with rich parents) doing separate masters. Scottish students can get a loan for a separate masters but the amount (fees and maintenance) used to be only about 10k. Some unis give discounts to their own undergraduates and there are a small amount if scholarships.

I’ll need to have a dig around for figures.
Not all science disciplines have the option of an integrated masters though. Most of my dc fellow students at Edinburgh university in her biology have undertaken a postgraduate MSc and so have to pay. I have heard of quite a few sport science students then paying for masters to qualify as physiotherapist (this was all in Scotland). Not all have rich parents and loans still need paying back.

in my day nearly thirty years ago going somewhere else for further study was encouraged over remaining at the same institution. I suppose this exposes students to different ideas, ways of thinking, approaches and if they remain in academia the short term contracts and relocating of post docs.

Interesting about Edinburgh and biology. The anecdotal examples i have from my DC are biology, maths, physics and biomedical engineering. All were at West of Scotland unis. The biology one went to Strathclyde.

Agree about physio. Neighbour didnt get an undergraduate place so did sports science and then masters. Has come home and commuted to save money (plus does weekend and holiday sports coaching to help fund).

Definitely different from my time. I switched unis for my fully funded masters.

In my opinion the financial model adopted for Scottish students is flawed.
graduate opportunities in Scotland once the students have a degree are extremely limited in many areas.

Even fully funded PhD are extremely competitive these days.
my dc partner had to go through three interviews to secure the place, then secure funding. As an undergraduate he had two papers published through summer internship and his final year project and had presented work at an international conference. He chose to move to a different institution.

He has been told by fellow researchers that Edinburgh University does have an international reputation that counts which many other institutions in Scotland do not have.

Many international students seem to finance their own postgraduate studies whether that be Masters or a PhD.

For the sciences (specifically medicine and dentistry) I took this up with my MSP (not SNP and old enough to remember Scottish eduction in glory days) because it appears to have swung the other way. Given the high entry requirements and specific AHs required - there are geographical/socio limitations. Not all schools/areas provide a full array of AHs and so the medical schools are filled with overseas and private students.

I know Dundee has a specific program for a “pre-year” for those from extremely disadvantaged backgrounds (eg you’re a foster kid from easterhouse) - but there are only 6 (I think) places and this doesn’t take into account someone living 15 miles from Wick.

Aberdeen again has a special course for “highlands and islands” kids who don’t have the requisite AHs.

But that still a lot of state school kids outwith private schools and pockets of deprivation who are losing out simply because their schools don’t offer AHs in the sciences.

SNP want to “close the gap” - I’m going to assume they mean aspiration as in “don’t aim for Edinburgh for medicine when you could stay in the salmon factory like your da”.

FWIW the diversity thing is such nonsense. I’m “highlands and islands” - but until we start FORCING people to live here, there will be predominantly white faces. 🤷‍♀️

SNP want to “close the gap” - I’m going to assume they mean aspiration as in “don’t aim for Edinburgh for medicine when you could stay in the salmon factory like your da”.

No the SNP are ‘closing the gap’ by making aspirational courses like law in Edinburgh only available to those who live in selected, predominantly SNP-voting, postcodes. It doesn’t matter how many AH someone in the vast majority of highlands studies, regardless of their individual deprivation, or even at a private school in Edinburgh, as they won’t even be considered.

At best it is a patch to cover their inability to improve educational standards in certain areas. At worst it is social engineering akin to China to ensure certain professions and power is put in the hands of their supporters.

@Shelefttheweb
Also a PhD isn’t what most need in law. They need the post grad law qualification. Law and many professional roles don’t need a PhD. They need the relevant degree and further on the job training to acquire professional status.

surely it’s good to have a general discussion around university entrance though and know what’s going in other subject areas.

Changed days certainly. I went to my local comprehensive in the 1980/1990s in a semi rural area where 50% of pupils were bused in.
My dad was a field technician, my sister who was four years below me at school (achieved 4A
and a B in her highers) she was rejected by Glasgow, Edinburgh gave her a conditional offer of a C, Dundee she had to get a B and an unconditional offer for Aberdeen. Two fellow pupils in my year applied for medicine, both received unconditional offer
based on their highers which was a mixture of A
and Bs (one whose father was the local GP, the other son of the laird).

My sister applied for medicine

Quite. They are lawyers. Of course the look middle class!

Scottish govt would do better to say uni is free for deprived students.
That is effectively is what is happening, the free spaces are being reserved for the poor. If you are paying you should go in the same merit pot as the overseas students.