DC is Y12- When / how to start the process!!!

[Starrburst]

Our eldest DC is in first year of A levels and interested in computer science/ maths at uni

They'll take the MAT tests in autumn I believe

When how where do we start the process??

How much help do schools give looking at course options and the application process??

All advice / links welcome! Help!!!!

@poetryandwine I've just checked and Imperial use MAT for maths. But say they may require STEP for computer science.

This is all bringing back memories of the 11+ stress. Not sure I can cope. 😭

Glad to hear this. DH, a Russell Group maths professor, and others have told me that in the past Maths used STEP. Maybe this will focus some DCs on Maths!

@poetryandwine yes I think it might steer DS towards maths instead of comp sci at Imperial.

He didn't sign up for the maths Olympiad at his school last term which I'm really cross about. He thinks just doing well in his A levels is enough for uni.

Not all brilliant mathematicians are IMO material.

DH didn’t excel in his first two years at Cambridge Maths. He felt the exams were largely comprised of trick questions, and seeing the trick under time constraints will never be his strength. But he excelled in Y3, when the material intrinsically more difficult, got a Distinction at Part III and a (funded) PhD offer from Cambridge (that he declined). He has held two excellent professorships.

Our school takes all y12 to a UCAS exhibition thing (sorry, it's Friday & my brain is mashed) in March. My DDs loved collecting freebies but if the DC knows what they want to do, they could talk to people there. We also went to visit different universities in school holidays to get a feel for places. Several were struck off the list by both, which helped to whittle it down.

@poetryandwine thank you but in DS's case he just won't do much beyond the curriculum rather than not being of the right material. He's not lazy as such but just does what he's asked to do no more no less. Won't do anything extra unless it's compulsory.

But for these competitive unis you have to show passion for your subject beyond just taking it for A level? Hopefully we can find something else he can do to demonstrate that he really does love maths and he's not just saying it!

@poetryandwine very impressed with your DH doing maths at Cambridge. Just to get in is a huge achievement and then to be offered a PhD is incredible.

@Amboseli you are correct that your DS will need to find a way to show his passion if the COWI institutions are to become a realistic possibility. But the Maths/CS cohort at the next tier of institution (mine) contains a large percentage of excellent students with top grades who genuinely aren’t quite as passionate about their subjects. (A few are: all institutions make admissions mistakes, and because there is so much weight on the interview, Oxbridge more than most).

I think it is good that students filter themselves in this manner, although life can be tough on the mistakes in both directions. The passionate ones at my level can find their tribe and develop academic relationships with staff. The ones mistakenly accepted to COWI can struggle badly and this Board frequently shows the evidence. (Support at those institutions is variable. I am certainly not saying that every case of struggle or MH problem is the result of an admissions mistake)Every student deserves a good fit. Without in any way addressing the question of how able your DS is, is it possible he would thrive more in an environment that demands less than Oxbridge?

Challenging weekly problem sets in several areas of maths, to submit ahead of time so his weaknesses can be critiqued? Paradoxically, the most able pupils may find it difficult to imagine that there are challenging areas of maths! A term in a COWI institution sets them straight and they react variously, whereas at the next level down the introduction is somewhat gentler (and so on, with the post 92 institutions often providing the greatest support for the transition to university level learning, across the board). Maths/CS students from virtually all UK institutions with good degrees have excellent opportunities, and a First from any RG institution is an excellent credential for further study, so no worries there.

I just want your DS to find his best fit, psychologically as well as academically. From what you have written, it isn’t clear to me what that is. It sounds likely that he is highly able and I wish him the best of luck

Thanks for interesting posts here all really appreciated.

Good idea to visit one or two unis at halfterm amd Easter just to wander around and have a feel for the places.

Spreadsheet - what should I even put on this??!! Was thinking to print off different course summaries into a folder for easy access.

Personal statement- when to start // how to demonstrate passion / what else could / should they be doing right now?

DC is veering more into a straight computer science course at the moment so will see how it goes. They are currently interested in Warwick/ Durham / Bristol/ poss Oxford - and on current grades hoping for AAA

What else do they need for a successful application? My understanding was for Maths and CS it is more a students understanding and natural ability rather than saying also captain of a hockey / footie netball team

Thanks for all shared thoughts.

I have posted these links on another thread, but your DS might start by having a rummage on the UCAS website:

ultimateguides.ucas.com/

www.ucas.com/explore/search/events?refinementList%5Bevent_type%5D%5B0%5D=exhibition

On the MAT vs STEP issue, my DS is currently applying for maths. If my understanding is correct, the hope is that a strong MAT performance may lead to offers from Warwick and Imperial that don't require STEP. But if he hadn't sat MAT they probably would include STEP in the offer.

I think that's right @OxbridgeHopeful. DS1 didn't sit TMUA or STEP but had an offer from Warwick after sitting the MAT. (He didn't apply to Imperial.)

Thanks that's really helpful. I am hoping the one (who has his sights sets on Oxbridge) already knows this and that it's just me who feels out of touch with the whole process.

It's normal to feel a bit bewildered by it all @middleager - I certainly was (still am a bit by the Cambridge process because my sons haven't tried for Cambridge). The important thing to find out is whether his school is familiar with it all - if they are you can relax a bit. There are loads of websites and videos with information and study tips as well.

And (you didn't ask for this advice but I'm going to give it anyway!) keep talking to your DC about other uk universities (and overseas if applicable). The Oxbridge admissions process is a gamble and rejection is the most likely outcome; Oxford has 20 applicants for every maths place and most of them are strong mathematicians. Not trying to harsh your buzz, but on the night before decisions day when everything seems fraught you will be glad you stayed interested in and positive about all the excellent options available!

So pleased you started this thread as I'm in exactly the same position with my Year 12 son.

However, he would like to do a degree apprenticeship in CS, software engineering with a full time university place being his second choice.

Is anyone else's child thinking of a degree apprenticeship? I know it's competitive and I am a bit concerned that he's not doing any 'extra curricular' stuff to make him stand out tbh.

I feel like we need to be looking around the universities attached to the potential placements asap.

@PacificState may I ask why your DS didn't apply to Imperial? Is he at/going to Warwick?

DS is thinking of maths and will probably apply to Imperial and Warwick plus others yet to be decided.

@BettyBlue50 I looked into degree apprenticeships but to me they seemed very narrow and DS doesn't really know what job he wants to do, will definitely be IT but no Idea about specifics.

Plus the unis offering degree apprenticeships didn't appeal to us. Maybe it doesn't matter as much as you have the work experience.

He was applying for Oxford (which he was lucky enough to get an offer for, he's in his second year now) and I think he felt applying for Imperial too was a bit... greedy, maybe? He also wasn't terribly keen on london unis overall (we live just outside london and he went to sixth form there). I don't think there was a compelling reason, just Oxford was his stretch target and he didn't want to add another one, I think. Among mathmos/STEM applicants I think imperial is considered pretty much as difficult to get into as Oxford and he's fairly laid back lazy. I'm sure loads of people apply to both.

@PacificState well done to your DS! I hope he's enjoying Oxford.

DS is considering Oxford as well. I do think Imperial is about as hard to get into as Oxford from what I can tell. We'll be guided by his school which has an excellent UCAS team. Warwick is also up there. It's the insurance choices we're a bit more unsure about.

Once he gets his projected grades it will all become clearer I hope.

Doesn’t Warwick too? I think!

Also some open days have elements you need to book. So best to start looking.

@Amboseli DS was also keen on Bristol and UCL - UCL's offer was the same as oxford's but Bristol's was a bit lower so that was his insurance. Lancaster is supposed to be good for maths as well

For Maths I would also take a look at Bath. I think parents and pupils may under-rate it for many STEM subjects and not did The Times just recently name it University of the Year. I wish the student vibe at my place were half so happy

@PacificState I do think Bristol is a good uni, I have some reservations about Bristol itself though and the pastoral care at the university. I think we'll have to make a visit.

Did your DS do anything extra curricular relevant to maths? Related work experience? DS also has to produce a research paper connected to his likely degree subject.

How is your DS finding the degree? Degree maths is very different from A level and I do want DS to be clear about what a maths degree involves.

The Times did just rate Bath University of the Year

Yes the stories in the press have been worrying (same goes for Cambridge and DS1 has certainly felt very under pressure at Oxford at times). My instinct is that you could probably (sadly) find those stories at any university, especially after the rotten couple of years students and academics had around lockdowns. But I've no specialist knowledge at all and it is frightening.

DS1 didn't have any extra curriculars at all, other than a decent performance in Olympiad in y13. What he did have was good predicted grades (3 x A star in maths, FM and physics) and a GCSE performance that was very strong against the average in his (terrible) secondary (Oxford do look at this, most other unis don't place so much weight on it - the difference between your GCSE achievement and the average at your school in your year).

Beyond that stuff he just scored well on the MAT, which puts you into a strong position to get an interview. There are loads of past papers, worked examples and websites around the MAT online.

In the background the truth is he genuinely finds maths fascinating and always did it for fun - he'd find YouTube channels about higher level maths and watch them for hours.

@poetryandwine we went to look at Bath with DS2 (engineering) over the summer and really liked it (reminded me a bit of York, where I went - both the town and the campus). Not easy to get an offer from them these days either - DS2 hasn't heard anything from them yet. A friend's son is doing psychology there and absolutely loves it. The staff were incredibly friendly - we went on a totally random day in the summer holiday and the security guy minding the main student info building was hugely friendly and helpful as soon as we said DS2 was a prospective applicant, which I thought said a lot of good things about how the place is run.