An Oxbridge tale

[latefloweringcrysanthemum]

I watch the conversations about this year Oxbridge application round with a professional interest but also very difficult as my DC was accepted a few years ago . It was my DC dream to go and as a family we were overjoyed and so proud. However , DC struggled with what we now realise were MH issues and eventually was withdrawn from the university. It was not very long ago, but MH was only just being talked about and I am sure now that there would be a much better understanding of DC's extreme anxiety. As a family we were devastated, as like all of you, we had invested so much in her success. DC new this and thus found it very difficult to admit that there were problems. Not academic but organisational etc. Family bereavement followed after this event and DC I am sure blames themselves for this in some way. DC has gone on to get a first class degree at another University but the trauma remains. So watch your DC very carefully and do not place too much on this Oxbridge goal. You may say you do not but as with all one cannot avoid it! My dearest wish is that I could have understood and supported and that the University could reach out to her even today. A silly wish I Know!

Wise words, thank you for sharing. I was a strange mix of disappointed and relieved when mine didn't get in.

Wise words indeed. Thank you for sharing, OP.

No university is the best fit for all students admitted. Oxbridge is no exception. In my stint as an admissions tutor I facilitated transfers for several Oxbridge students who, like your DC, just didn’t find the place a good fit.

I always think students who are seriously unhappy at uni owe it to themselves to look for a better fit

Sadly there was no-one looking after DC. DC was really struggling with deadlines etc. It was " special you are a bad person exams" then rustication with work that DC it turned out could not do as brain in melt down and then asked to leave.But of course we blamed ourselves for not understanding or indeed admitting to MH problems. Now, a short few years after, I sense it is very unlikely that this would happen. Many students at such institutions would find it very difficult to admit that they are not a fit and I am not sure that given the nature of the application process that this is fair.

what Sort of student would you say makes a good fit for any given university?

….or oxbridge specifically ? Assuming that academic abilities is not the issue as that’s the main point of the selection process.

Great questions, @Teriyakieverything

To start with, some students only realise too late that they are strongly suited for a campus or urban environment only, and they have chosen the other one. The size of the university/unit of admission/course intake can be another important factor - some realise too late that they need the buzz and multiple options of a large place; others that knowing and being known by their cohort and their lecturers is very important, that they need a sense of friendliness. (I am not saying large places are unfriendly! But usually you must put some effort into finding your tribe and some find this very difficult).

Pedagogical considerations are another issue, particularly for highly able students. Some genuinely have strong ideas about how their subject should be taught and do best in a programme that conforms to them. However IMO students who are unhappy for other reasons will sometimes pick pedagogical arguments with their curriculum almost as an attempt to justify their unhappiness.

I was educated abroad but know a number of Oxbridge students, some very well. One’s self confidence is a key factor in one’s happiness there, both with the tutorial system, which is very intense, and regarding one’s relationships with other students. Many arrive either under confident or over confident. Both can be very difficult.

Also, it is probably true that students who have come from certain schools and feel that Oxbridge is their birthright may, deliberately or not, intimidate some of the under confident ones from different backgrounds. It is easy to imagine that this just adds to the misery and indeed we sometimes see such postings on this Board. There is a bit of this at a few other universities, but I think (and the Board reflects) nothing like as much.

Ironically, some of these ‘Oxbridge is my birthright’ students may have overachieved in their exams owing to excellent educations and given excellent interviews owing to outstanding preparation, then turn out to be relatively weak students. There are many ways things can go wrong. This is why for the most part I don’t believe in overzealous preparation. You want to end up someplace where you will genuinely thrive

Yes I wouldn't encourage my son to go there at all. Although my experience was 30 years ago, and it may have changed. But I think the teaching system and the college system encourage a rather hot house environment. They are so vulnerable and its helpful to have seminars in which they are encouraged to communicate and support each other which happened at the ex poly I attended later.

@poetryandwine thank you for taking the time to reply and what you say makes a lot of sense.

I asked because DD has just had her C Natsci interview last week, it would be a cream offer if it comes through. Then yesterday we were at the Bath offer holder day and it was a very informative day, getting to meet the friendly academic Staff and seeing the labs as well as Bath (despite the traffic chaos ) was great. And Bath would obviously be a very different experience to Imperial or UCL, where there would not be so much of a ready made made community feel, but the London experience would be something else.

To be honest, as she’s lived at home so far, same for most students entering university, she doesn’t really know what would suit her best, or she says she does but I think until she is there , she will not know. And I don’t really know either, even though she is my child.

Another example is that Imperial has 63 % international intake , whereas Bath is 10%. That alone will have significance in the dynamics of the place for the student, many London students also live at home if there are from London.

Anyway, we ve yet to hear from 3 of the 5, so we’ve said no point thinking too much about the scenarios until we know how the pieces fall in March.

Hi again, @Teriyakieverything

Cambridge and Imperial are obviously superb academically. I am in STEM at a very good Russell Group uni, but not of that calibre.

But the reason I came back is to tell you how great I think Bath is. I love to visit there and when I do both the staff and students in my discipline look very happy. The place just feels good, and of course the city is wonderful. I think it was also the Times University of the Year this year.

Only 10% international seems a bit low to me, tbh, but Imperial seems awfully high. I think for everyone’s sake 25-30% international is ideal, particularly if the international cohort is diverse. When Schools put some care into integrating their international students, everyone benefits. And many studies show that any minority group needs to attain a critical mass of about 25% to feel comfortable.

PS UCL is superb also, but in my discipline it is closer to us and not super elite like Cambridge and Imperial. It sounds like your DD will have good options!

@poetryandwine your posts about university admissions and experiences are always so interesting to read. Can I just add that some parents seem to think a DC's choice reflects on them in some way – no child should be encouraged to attend a university which they don't feel is right for them purely because it's their parents' wish or because it has a 'name'.

It's also always possible to change tack for future study, particularly as 18 is so young to be making irrevocable decisions. DD2 went to mid-rank former poly for her under-graduate degree. Had a great time, made some lovely friends, did some partying, travelled around playing sport for the university and generally got a lot out of it. Then decided she wanted to pursue a more academic route, and went to a very highly ranked university (above Cambridge and Imperial for her particular field of STEM) for her Masters. Totally different experience – no time for anything other than studying so part-time work, sport and social life all put completely on hold for 12 months. But by then she was 22, she was very focused on what she wanted to do and was prepared for the temporary sacrifices she had to make in order to get there. She wouldn't have been ready to do that at 18.

PS her best friend did a STEM degree at Bath and loved it. During her placement year she worked for a well-known multi-national company, and got a full-time job with them upon graduating. I think the city just has a really nice feel to it.

This is a very useful thread. Well said, OP. As someone who has worked doing Oxbridge admissions and teaching for a long time (as well as in other universities), you are quite right that it is not a fit for everyone and I'm glad your DD did well elsewhere. Behind the scenes, a lot of us where trying to change the attitude to MH and to different learning needs such as ADHD or ASD in Oxbridge, and it has got better; but even with that awareness it is not an environment which is good for everyone. I would prefer my students to enjoy their years of university, rather than feel under constant pressure.

DS is at Oxford, now 2nd year. We had to bring him home halfway through his first term due to MH issues caused by repeated self isolation during COVID. I'd urge all parents and students to allow parental support - this has to be done in writing AFAIK.

One thing that really shocked me was that the terms are only 8 weeks which combined with extra volume of work makes them incredibly intense. For reference my first term each year was 13 weeks.

Interesting. My very bright DS (and we as his parents) have been fielding many comments about his choice not to apply for Oxbridge. DS, DH and I are in complete agreement that it's not the right choice for him for a whole host of reasons, but it is still seen by many as the ONLY acceptable option for high achieving students, despite that very evidently not being the case.

Good that this has provoked a useful discussion. However, I would add that in the dim and distant past when I attended university there were no real discussions about the "fit" for students. Indeed, there was often very little parental involvement. I see many students who whilst thrilled to achieve a place at a prestigious institution are also aware that it means so much for their parents and thus they would be very reluctant to admit to not enjoying it.The Oxbridge applicants thread often seems a bit disingenuous in that parents say they just want DC to be happy whatever the outcome but clearly have invested heavily in the potential success. I also think that it is very good that parents can now be contacted if all is not well. But I still believe that responsibility has to be taken by the institution to ensure that an applicant once accepted will be treated with understanding and above all sensitivity.

I agree with all of this and especially your last statement, @latefloweringcrysanthemum . Our School does a pretty good job of providing extra support and granting Mitigating Circumstances for students who go through channels. (We have emergency procedures)

But that means that having a good relationship with your Personal Tutor or the Academic Support Officer can be important, and some of that is about the luck of the draw. Furthermore, University Counselling Services are not fit for purpose, though you would never know this to hear the top brass talk. My sense from colleagues is that we are not alone and that at many RG unis the Counselling Services and similar support are not what students and families would hope.

My sense is also that a number of former polys may do better on student welfare. This is another reason the path chosen by @thing47 ’s DD can be an excellent one for many.

To start with, some students only realise too late that they are strongly suited for a campus or urban environment only, and they have chosen the other one. The size of the university/unit of admission/course intake can be another important factor - some realise too late that they need the buzz and multiple options of a large place; others that knowing and being known by their cohort and their lecturers is very important, that they need a sense of friendliness.

One of ours spent the whole of the first term thinking that a city university was a mistake, and then came home to our rather boring rural backwater and realised it was, well, rather rural and boring in comparison to a nice vibrant city (with a nightlife! and things to do! and other teenagers closer than a half hour bus ride, if lucky!).

Specifically re Oxford, but it might also apply to Cambridge and Durham.

The difference between colleges is stark. DS (ASC) was pretty freaked out by the vibrant party colleges, we toured the garden of another college and got hushed by someone reading/studying. DS turned round to me and said "I'm coming here", and he is!

May be I am lucky my 5 graduate children thought Oxbridge w stoo much effort to try to get into it and could not be bothered to have a go (weven those where the school wanted them to do so)! However Oxbridge is not the only university where students might have problems - three of mine went to Bristol and remained extremely laid back but there were certainly others there who killed themselves even as there in many universities. It is very sad as that seems so important at one time will not for that person later. (mind you one of mine last week said he hoped he had failed his last exam as he would quite like to do a resit as the end of exams forever was sad as he likes them - this is not an attitude to emulate)

I think if someone tries for Oxbridge the family should not make it the one right path. I always say if yuou have a child trying for an exam at 11+ for a school don't let the child even nkow that of the 4 schools they are trying one is better or best or your preferred one. If the child is upset about not getting into one it tends to be because the parent had a clear favourite and told the child.

I suppose there are two clear messages. Firstly not to assume that what your child says is always what they really mean. Had exactly the same response about a quiet/studious college from DC but this was not in the end the right choice. A vibrant college would have created a slipstream of activity and connections. So do they say this because it is what they want you to think as a result of the expectations placed on a bright student at school? Secondly the responsibility does lie with the institution to support a student they have chosen and think about implications of "failure to thrive"

I agree with your observations, OP. It is a paradox that parents, particularly those of us who were not particularly well understood by our parents, can actually overvalue connectedness to our beloved DC at a time of life when those DC need to start (at their own pace) to separate.

My discipline leads to well paid and secure careers, so parents can push it for DC who are capable but not interested and would therefore be better suited to something else. They do this with the best will in the world.

The number of DC who have told me in tears, often in the midst of an academic disaster, how much they hate what they are doing and how badly this has spiralled, is very sad indeed. I am not suggesting this is the cause of most MH problems at uni, but saying as strongly as I can that even, or possibly especially, when you and your DC are close, yes — they may be very reluctant to let you down.

I’ve obviously agreed above very strongly with the second if OP’s messages.

In our experience Bristol was awful for m/h support

Really interesting thread OP. My DD is not Oxbridge material but is hoping to study a creative subject next year at one of the newer universities. DD2 is more traditionally academic but I wouldn't want Oxbridge for her. Family member went to Oxbridge and did not enjoy it though they graduated with a good degree. They later did a post graduate medical degree and really enjoyed that though.

Bristol made it clear in a court case that they do not have a duty of care to students (and the court agreed)

One issue that several oxbridge students I know have struggled with is they were academic ‘stars’ at their schools (state or mid-tier private schools). When they got to Oxbridge they were very much run of the mill or struggled academically.