Online lectures

[OhBeAFineGuyKissMe]

DD has just started at York. She has 4 hours of seminars and has just found out that all lectures are pre-recorded. Even the introductory lecture was via zoom. If they are going to do it live why not do it in person?

There is nothing on the website that says her lectures would be prerecorded! If we had known it would have been a major factor is choosing which university to go to. She only found out in the first week of term.

Very hard to think what we can do now. I am pissed off that she is spending £9250 (even if you get a loan you are still paying it) as well as we are financially supporting her for such a shit offering.

Is there any way I can complain about this (I know she is 18, by 2 months, but parents are expected to financially support through university)? If we had known this she wouldn’t have put York down as her choice, so I feel deceived as well. If they are proud of the pre-recorded lectures why don’t they make it very clear what they are doing?

Anyone else still no doing proper lectures and how do you / your child think about this?

She’s an adult, she can complain. You can’t. Well you can but it’s not your place to do so.

That’s appalling and there’s no excuse for this in the current climiate. I’d get DD to ask the university for their policy (as the university im at for postgraduate states that all lectures should be offered f2f as default other than exceptional circumstances) so we have been able to push back a bit using that.

Not sure if you are really asking why or just venting but some places / lecturers were pre-recording lectures pre-pandemic because it can allow double the seminar time. One reason for live zoom is when you have a module with lecturers from different areas and they might not be able to get physically to the room in time to get back to other classes.
If your child is unhappy, they can complain through the course rep and if others are saying the same, they will be listened to.

@NormalNans it is hard when you are just 18 starting at uni to make a complaint. And as we are still expected to financially contribute* (we would even if there is no expectation) then I think parents should have some way to ask questions.

*DD is not eligible for maintenance loan, parents are expected to pay that or she has to prove that we aren’t

Have they taken loads of deferred students and not cut back on this year's numbers? It may be their way of coping with say 200 on a module and a lecture hall that holds 150. Seminars or small groups may still be running F2F as they have rooms that have the capacity. On the plus side if they are being transmitted chances are they are also recorded and your DS/Dd will be able to access them again after.

My DS has f2f at his uni (now in y2) but lectures are recorded and he finds that ot is much better to rematch after to take notes.

Yes annoying that they didn't know ahead lf time and it may have informed their choice.

I am afraid that I wouldn't try the but I am paying £9250 approach as there are so many reasons why this devalues the argument that have been discussed previously on MN.

@IScreamMonday but asking for advise and a bit of a vent.

If 4 hours is double the seminar time then it was even shitter before! I could understand this if there was more seminars but it is really only 4 hours of contact time a week. And to have the first lecture via zoom is just rubbish. She hasn’t even met anyone off her course yet!

I will advise her to contact her student rep - she is probably concerned about rocking the boat though. Is is worth be contact anyone?

If they were doing a flipped classroom, she should have two hours of seminar for each one hour lecture she is watching.
It could be that the university has over-recruited for her degree as someone else said above - I seem to remember hearing that York had been putting students in accomodation in Hull last year for the same problem.
The student rep is there to collect feedback on how things are going and so she should feel very confident in passing this on. I wouldn't worry about rocking the boat at all - it may well be that her lecturers would also prefer to be in person.

I would be appalled. DS took a year out in order to maximise chances of uni being back to normal and, as far as I can work out from what he tells us, that’s paid off - in-person lectures, f2f teaching, loads of nights out with different clubs and societies, etc. He’s at Edinburgh and having a great time, and I’d be gutted if he’d found himself in your DD’s situation. I don’t know what can be done about it though - she really does need to complain herself but you can support her by helping her find the best way to do that.

She can go to the course rep and they will represent her. If she’s annoyed about it, so will other people be. Yes it’s hard, I am an August born, so like her was only a few weeks past 18 when I started but ultimately she is an adult.

You might be supporting her but you don’t have a contract with them, she does and it is her right to complain.

Thanks again, her course was on clearing so I don’t think it is oversubscribed (but you never know).

I know there are problem with using the fact student are paying when raising complaints but if you turn students in to customers then they have a right to query what they are buying.

Anyone else still no doing proper lectures and how do you / your child think about this?

We do exclusively live in-person teaching now, and a lot of students have complained, particularly as their lectures start at 9 or 9:30am. They like the lectures being recorded and available online for them to watch at a time they prefer. The student newspaper was in outrage at the "imposition" of a normal timetable last year.

So go figure!

Your DD may find that the 4 hours of seminars will keep her busy. And se may also find that in the later years of her degree, there's more small group/seminar teaching as her degree studies become more specialised.

if you turn students in to customers then they have a right to query what they are buying.

Universities didn't do this.

Hi, OP -

Academic here. First, your DD really needs to take the lead on this herself. The reality is that if her parents step in she will be seen as weak and her very likely legitimate complaint — I am being cautious here and will return to this — will be devalued. I am in no way defending this. Life is difficult for freshers who haven’t met anyone on their course yet.

Like a PP, I just want to query that the ‘flipped classroom’ model isn’t behind this. Given that the introductory lecture was online it sounds unlikely, but you need to be sure. In a flipped classroom model, students watch the lectures in their own time, then have enhanced small group engagement based on having done this. When it works it can be excellent. But it isn’t easy and I would expect more than four contact hrs/wk. It’s just that if this is really about flipped classrooms, you need to re-evaluate.

I agree that your DD’s concerns are very likely justified and shared by others. Registering them with her Student Reps is definitely the best way forward. I would also recommend that she join the online forum TheStudentRoom and lay out the situation there, asking if anyone shared her concerns. She might also look for some study buddies, but if so she will want to keep an eye on the tone of her posts so as to sound friendly and approachable to other students, even while unhappy with the lecturing situation.

The quality of your DC’s education should not be linked to who is paying for it. That sometimes it is (independent vs state schools, though hardly uniformly) is hugely regrettable according to the values of many academics. Hence a consumerist motivation for the complaint is not likely to gain traction.

This sounds even worse than the situation at my uni. The only way I can see to warn future students is to get this kind of thing out into the open. But universities will resist that or, as we do, use language that is very hard to parse. Good luck

I’m a university lecturer and we don’t have anything online now. Sessions should be face-to-face. It’s perfectly good practice to put additional materials online but not as a replacement for lectures or seminars.
I’d complain if I was a student.

OTOH, the idea of the "flipped" lecture was starting to be used before the pandemic.

Content-heavy lectures are recorded and made available to students to watch in their own time and at a pace which enables them to comprehend and absorb the content, in combination with the required and suggested reading as appropriate.

Then more time (a precious resource for university academics) is available for much more intense seminar/small group teaching.

The principle here is that in-person lectures might be a good way of getting a heap of information & content to students, but it's not always a great way to learn. The pre-recorded lectures allow students to take a lecture more slowly, and to understand the material, with the seminar time to discuss and explore the content even further, and in discussion & collaboration with other students.

It may be that if your DD asks about this, this is what she'll have explained to her.

That's awful OP. I really feel for your DD. It's difficult to gel with your cohort in those circumstances. It's also all the discussion and sharing of ideas that goes on over a coffee after the lecture which is missing.

Is it an arts subject? They traditionally tend to have the large lectures for several hundred. Even before covid places were recording these lectures as well as live so not everyone needed to attend. Sounds like York have just dropped the option to attend bit!

I have one in 2nd yr now and she has 1 online lecture each week, everything else in person. Last year it was 50/50. But hers is a STEM subject.

As has been suggested I would help your DD to script something and take it to her class rep to raise. She could also email the course leader for explanation as why so little is in person.

Good luck to your DD

We do exclusively live in-person teaching now, and a lot of students have complained, particularly as their lectures start at 9 or 9:30am. They like the lectures being recorded and available online for them to watch at a time they prefer. The student newspaper was in outrage at the "imposition" of a normal timetable last year.

I can completely believe this @BirdinaHedge
It's just like all the people who are moaning about having to return to their office 3 days a week!

The problem is a lot of these students are young people and if they started university in the last couple of years we taught them that you roll out of bed and switch your laptop on, still in your pyjamas! We taught them you only actually have to leave your room and go to a class a couple of times a week. That's been the norm for them in their formative years.
So now they're all complaining when they have to be in a lecture a 20 minute walk away by 9.30🤷🏼‍♀️

Can you tell us what subject this is OP?

@BirdinaHedge same complaints at my place re F2F. We record lectures live - thus those not wanting to come to classes (although, to be far, some can't attend for legit reasons) can catch up later.

Yep: go figure as you say!

Sorry to hear this, is it all subjects at York or just the one your dd is taking?

My DD just started 1st year at York as well and all her lectures and seminars are in person, and so are all her flatmates. I assume it may just be your daughter's course, what is she studying?

Interesting that it might be just my daughter’s course. She is reading Archaeology.

As well as the video lectures there are seminars and workshops and lots of guided group work so they might be doing a flipped learning approach. It will be interesting to hear how the weeks actually pan out.

It could also be that the lecturer who would usually deliver these lectures live is suddenly unable to (illness, pregnancy etc). We are specialists, and it may be that there's no-one with knowledge or workload capacity to step in at short notice.

there are seminars and workshops and lots of guided group work
But it sounds as though they're getting much more useful face to face time this way. Lectures are not a great way of learning - and part of my basic training as an university teacher 30 years ago was a series of sessions about "100 good reasons not to lecture'

"Proper lectures" (as you call them in your OP) are actually not so good for student learning.

As well as the video lectures there are seminars and workshops and lots of guided group work so they might be doing a flipped learning approach. It will be interesting to hear how the weeks actually pan out

Well that's not really what you posted in your OP which sounded like there was no f2f contact at all.
So have I now understood it correctly that it is just the lectures which are pre-recorded and online, and the seminars, workshops and guided group work are all f2f?

I don't think the pre-recorded lectures are an issue at all. The students can presumably watch them when they want which can be advantageous (not everyone has the same body-clock and is capable of taking in complex information at 9 am). They can also re-watch them if necessary.

Does York still go back later than other unis? Because if this is the case they have barely started yet so your DD should give it a chance before complaining!

And another point about York - aren't most of the lectures etc in King's Manor in the city? When I was at York archaeologist friends rarely bothered going to lectures because they had to trek so far into town and it was a pain in the neck just going in for an hour or two. Perhaps the department have decided that the pre-recorded lectures are a good idea for this reason too.

Online lectures are not a new / exclusively covid related thing. My DS did his degree before covid and I was astonished at that time that he could watch lectures at any time - no 9am bleary eyed walks to a lecture hall for him! The justification was that it made the learning more inclusive for those who for whatever reason could not or preferred not to attend in person.

My DD was a covid era undergraduate and actually preferred the online lectures as she could stop, rewind, pause to make notes or look something up. She could watch in her own time and be totally focussed (ie not hung over, tired, etc).

Both had in person seminars (obviously disrupted for the younger one for part first year, while of second year) and both graduated 2:1.

What I’m trying to say is that online lectures in and of themselves are not necessarily a negative thing.