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Higher education

Talk to other parents whose children are preparing for university on our Higher Education forum.

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Original poster

Is DS being set up to fail?

53 replies

CanThisBe · 01/09/2022 17:56

He got reasonable GCSEs from a comprehensive school. An 8 in Maths but mostly 5/6s

He left school at 16 and has been employed in an engineering related field since.

Now, when most students have just had their A level results he has been offered a place on a Foundation year by a RG uni. If he passes, he's guaranteed a place on one of their maths or science degree courses. These courses typically ask for between AAA and ABB. There's nothing in his history to suggest he would have got those A levels, even if he'd taken them, which he didn't.

He wrote a good statement which demonstrated his interest in the subjects and has some extra curricular relevant experience. He did an interview where they set him some verbal questions around the subjects.

I'm wondering how someone with ordinary GCSEs and no further education can be expected to compete with AAA after a one year foundation course.

Have they offered not expecting him to pass, ie happy to just take the money? Will they pass him, but not expect him to do well at the degree or do they really expect their foundation year to bring him up to scratch?

Obviously he needs to work very hard, but if he does that....?

OP posts:

Flossiemoss · 01/09/2022 18:00

GCSEs are level 2 qualification.
a levels are level 3. Foundation year is also level 3.
1st year uni is level 4, 2nd yr-level 5 and 3rd is level 6. Took me a while to get the hang of the system but that’s how they class it all now.

I would say he’d be fine , it’s the same level as if he was studying a levels he obviously loves what’s he’s doing and is good at it. I’d also feel he will get more support for a foundation year than he may have had at a levels. Its amazing how much h.e. has changed since I went and for the better.

Original poster

CanThisBe · 01/09/2022 18:03

Flossiemoss · 01/09/2022 18:00

The bumf from the Uni says the foundation year is CertHe and level 4?

But yes, I'm hoping that there will be proper study support and that he's mature enough to accept it a couple of years on. He didn't want to do Alevels and TBH having seen DS1 go through them, I don't think DS2 would have been a good Alevel student, but maybe better now he's a bit older.

OP posts:

Flossiemoss · 01/09/2022 18:08

fair enough - I don’t think level 4 is a massive jump from3 . Plus he has all the learning from his industry experience. Academia is a lot less linear than it used to be. Ds has done a btec, ds 2 in middle of a levels. I can’t say I’m massively enamoured with a levels either having had experience of both now.

titchy · 01/09/2022 18:09

No they're not setting him up to fail. He's got maturity (how old is he?) and work experience that sixth form leavers won't have. He's obviously been able to demonstrate motivation and potential at interview. The FY, if he works hard, should get him up to their usual year 1 standard (which may well be around the BBB mark despite what they advertise).

He'll have to work hard, but imo should grab this opportunity!

Choconut · 01/09/2022 18:09

I guess the level 3 foundation course will prepare him specifically for the course maybe whereas 3 A-levels are likely to include one which is less relevant and some material in the other two that isn't needed? That maybe why it's only one year. May also be more intensive. I'd see how he goes on the foundation course but really the question is does he want to do it? What is the alternative? Can he stay with the job he has now and progress?

titchy · 01/09/2022 18:10

FY is usually somewhere between L3 and 4 btw. Probably more L3 tbh but some as a pp says tweak their outcomes so they can award CertHEs - makes their metrics look better.

carefullycourageous · 01/09/2022 18:11

I'm wondering how someone with ordinary GCSEs and no further education can be expected to compete with AAA after a one year foundation course.

-Because A-levels are only one type of evidence of ability
-Because he wants to do a Maths/Science course and they will target the learning in the Foundation year to that. He did get an 8 at GCSE.

I really don't think the Uni is setting him up to fail as drop outs are a big negative for them and they genuinely want kids to do well, but maybe call and ask for a conversation so they can explain it all to you.

In the old days they used to let adults take degrees with only very basic qualifications and I know a couple of very senior people who went that route - no A-levels and a major switch from their previous work (blue collar jobs).

I have a friend who did an access course and then did extremely well on their degree.

It sounds like a good opportunity.

gogohmm · 01/09/2022 18:14

The foundation year is set up for those without traditional qualifications or who underachieved

itsgettingweird · 01/09/2022 18:15

My ds is saying at college and doing an HNC which is level 4.

It's the first year equivalent to a degree and next they can do an HND which is level 5 and foundation degree equivalent.

So he's technically already accepted on a course for post A level achievements.

I think what's happened is everyone gets so focussed on what we hear about uni - top unis, a levels the need for AAA etc that it's forgotten that there are other routes in.

Your ds has done an apprenticeship. He has talents in a particular subject.

It won't be a case of taking his money on a false pretence or promise. They'll be taking him on to complete an actual qualification and after that they'll judge whether it's worthwhile him paying for the next level up or taking his qualification and taking another route.

Original poster

CanThisBe · 01/09/2022 18:41

Thanks all, I'm really excited for him, I'd quite like to do the course myself! It just all seemed a bit too good to be true, to get a place at a top university on the strength of his fairly average GCSEs. He has worked, but not at anything particularly high level and he hasn't gained any further qualifications.

OP posts:

PinkyU · 01/09/2022 18:46

Ultimately universities are a business, they get their money by looking successful, they wouldn’t offer your DS a place if he were likely to fail and therefore bring down the university’s pass rate.

Congratulations to your DS, taking a different route to further education can be difficult, he’s got a lot to be proud of, as do you.

Bunnyannesummers · 01/09/2022 19:07

Just because they typically ask for AAA or AAB does not mean that’s the typical entry requirements students have - worth noting a fair few places currently publish higher entry reqs than they would have a few years ago because of the TAGS!

FictionalCharacter · 01/09/2022 20:48

They would absolutely not offer him a place expecting him not to pass! No way! Not only do they want good degree results for their own prestige, they genuinely want students to succeed and be happy. (I work in HE in case you hadn’t guessed, but not in admissions).
Congrats to your son, I hope he enjoys it. He’s done really well.

Original poster

CanThisBe · 01/09/2022 21:21

Bunnyannesummers · 01/09/2022 19:07

What's TAGS?

OP posts:

titchy · 01/09/2022 21:25

Teacher assessed grades.

Original poster

CanThisBe · 01/09/2022 21:32

titchy · 01/09/2022 21:25

Teacher assessed grades.

Oh, they think A level results have been inflated?

OP posts:

TizerorFizz · 02/09/2022 02:33

It’s a foundation course. They are not saying he is equivalent to someone with AAA! Yet.

I know a student who did the “wrong” A levels for veterinary medicine. They did a foundation course even with AAA (and I think higher) in what they did take.,So not all foundation course DC have no A levels.

If it’s a practical course, and not loads of essay writing and hard maths, he should be fine. Just needs to work at it. Hope he does well. He must not feel he’s not good enough either. He is.

sashh · 02/09/2022 05:47

No he is not being set up to fail.

Universities have realised that good A level grades are not an indicator of success at uni so they are using various means to widen participation and achievement.

TizerorFizz · 02/09/2022 09:26

@sashh
Thats not true at the best universities. You don’t get into LSE, Oxbridge or Imperial with CCC so of course A levels predict success. Or why even make them part of the selection process? They do matter. But you can study for a foundation which is focussed on the specific degree. There would not be enough to go round if everyone took this route.

RoseAndRose · 02/09/2022 09:34

CanThisBe · 01/09/2022 21:32

Oh, they think A level results have been inflated?

Show quote history

It's the two covid years. They had notably higher A level results than the years before and the year after.

I don't know how universities plan to deal with those two anomalous years (and I expect we're through the worst of it) but it must have been pretty hard to deal fairly with this year's A level cohort, especially when some courses were already getting full with those who had deferred a year (some even offered inducements to do so by some universities)

MrsEricBana · 02/09/2022 09:37

My friend's ds got sub optimal A levels and so missed his uni offer but they took him via the foundation route you describe. He did well on the foundation and is now absolutely as good as anyone else on the degree. I'd say what a fantastic opportunity for your son and I think he should grab it with both hands - good luck!

ShoesEverywhere · 02/09/2022 09:43

Both my husband and I failed our a levels spectacularly and he worked for a few years and I went straight to uni to do a foundation year. We both got first class degrees and did really well in our FYs - I even ended up teaching on the foundation year course once I'd graduated. If he's motivated to succeed he can do really well. I spent many hours in the library in my foundation year to try to get the best grade possible, I think if you're determined and focussed you can do really well. Good luck to him!

senua · 02/09/2022 09:48

Out of interest, why is he looking at a standard 3-year degree? Why not get an employer-sponsored degree apprenticeship?

Singleandproud · 02/09/2022 09:53

Degrees are easier in some ways than GCSEs in that you are more mature, have an end goal in mind and aren't spreading yourself thinly between 10+ different subjects.

5/6s aren't awful grades, he may not get a first but I don't think someone with 5/6s would fail altogether he would probably get a 2:1 or 2:2 which will still help his career in future. Although you can't discount a first altogether, plenty of people do degrees with the OU, often having very poor GCSEs and pull it out the bag.

girlwhowearsglasses · 02/09/2022 10:01

Sounds like an amazing opportunity

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