Unis request to raise fees to insane levels

[FlakeSnow]

Fees for 2023 and 2024 are agreed to be £9250. Article below appears to be calling for increase in fees to circa £24k ie on par with overseas students.

Do anyone think this is a remote chance this will happen? My initial reaction is one of horror. (Not read beyond the paywall).

Times uni fees article

For someone so involved with med school entry has it never occurred to you why the usual fee for those who do have to pay is on average about £40k a year? That's because that's how much it costs to deliver the course, on average.

Students do not "do actual work" on wards, they're not fit to do so. Clinical training is for the student's benefit just like lab training for science students is not 'working'. Even post qualification, when junior doctors actually do work on wards, the cost of training them is high and resources limited, hence the limit on numbers. This is so in every country because that's just what it takes to train doctors properly.

@maryso not sure you read it properly. I said, don't you think the tax payer should pay some of the cost of training doctors & nurses and they repay by committing to the NHS for a set number of years. And I asked where the £200,000 cost figure comes from. Because currently my DD is working on wards unpaid, providing many services that doctors do. She gets some teaching each week but for the majority of the last 2 years has been learning on wards. See one, do one has never been more true.
Where is this £200K figure from ? There are 350 students in DDs year so that means it cost their Uni 350 x (200K /5) = £14 million this year alone for her year group. Multiply that by 5 year groups and it's costing £70 million a year. Where is this money coming from ????? Or is it some kind of hidden cost I don't understand?

@maryso and you show how little you know about the state of the NHS. Thus week my DD has put in catheters, cannulas and taken blood. She's filled in drug charts, discharge papers and taken patients histories to present. Once their MACS are signed off they can perform theses skills unsupervised. Because there often isn't anyone to supervise. I fail to see how each student costs £40,000 a year.

Your student dd is doing the work doctors do? Really? Unsupervised? On her own? No one checking?

Cross posted. Ok so she's doing stuff HCAs do, not stuff doctors do. Thank fuck for that!

This is embarrassing for you. All that is training, they don't actually need students to do that, have you forgotten taking histories, too? Everything a med student does is for their benefit, it is not NHS work. It costs the NHS for them to be trained to do those things.

If you really think it costs less than £40k a year on average for each year in med school, you're simply and utterly wrong.

@titchy well she did an ABG on her own this week. And not sure HCAs are allowed to put catheters in ? But yes, once MACS signed off they are allowed to do things unsupervised. That's the point of being signed off. Although DD does like a nurse to be on hand (for moral and technician support).

Nice of that nurse to provide that supervision free of charge! Oh wait.... she's being paid! Doh!

This is largely untrue (especially for nursing). Everyone on my nursing degree secured posts in the NHS. I know of no one from overseas who came over, did a degree in nursing and then left immediately (I know plenty of British nurses leaving for oz and nz )

As PP have said it's international students fees subsidising home student fees so even if your statement were true you've not accounted for this.

Some idiot always manages to drag some xenophobia in.

India and the Philippines train a surplus of nurses (and doctors) which we employ. We benefit way more from international health care workers.

@maryso 😂😂 ah well, reasoned debate is over once personal attacks begin. Never mind. I'll carry on not knowing where the £70 million a year comes from for a Uni each year.

@titchy weirdly the nurses are very happy to help when a student asks. Because they are kind, not like some people on here. Weird behaviour by some, so aggressive.
Let's hope something is done as we need the NHS staffed better than it is now. It is dangerous currently. But I expect the people on here denying that debt for students is an issue have private care. And are rich enough to pay for their own kids not to be in debt. Always the way.

Im sure they are happy to help! But don't imagine they're providing training supervision and support for free - they're not. It takes time.

@maryso

student nurses definitely undertake unsupervised clinical work, keeping the NHS going.

Unsupervised (in accordance with their competency - not wrongly): They wash, turn and feed patients. Carry out obs and blood sugars. Escort patients to CT, XR, MRI. They do far more than this supervised or semi supervised.

From what I have seen I agree with regarding medical students.

Non Nurses are usually surprised to hear how much work student nurses do

The cost is borne three ways - the student obvs pays their £9k a year, the OfS gives the unis grants, same as for other very high cost courses, and DHSC also contribute towards training costs (though a lot of the cost was transferred as a block grant to DfE a few years ago) - but the deaneries are still tax payer funded and salaries of clinicians who teach generally still NHS funded.

I agree with every word of this

@titchy oh, wild guess here, but I’d say there’s more than one!

Yea you're probably right - for some odd reason quite a lot of people think that a salary of £90k is plenty to run a half billion pound global enterprise. In fact their cousin Dave could probably do a better job with his experience of running a building company. 🤷‍♀️

Where is this £200K figure from ? There are 350 students in DDs year so that means it cost their Uni 350 x (200K /5) = £14 million this year alone for her year group. Multiply that by 5 year groups and it's costing £70 million a year. Where is this money coming from ????? Or is it some kind of hidden cost I don't understand?

Each student pays £9,250 pa in years 1-4. The NHS pays this in year 5 (and 6, if a six-year course or student intercalates). The OfS pays £1,500 pa in years 1&2 and £10,000 pa each year after that to cover the higher cost of clinical academics. So £72,950 per student for a five-year course so far.

Then there is tariff: money paid by Health Education England via universities to healthcare providers to cover the cost of hosting students on clinical placement. Because of the time needed to supervise students and organise placements, hospitals & practices that host students need to employ more clinical and administrative staff to ensure service delivery isn't negatively affected, hence the need for additional funding. The amount paid per student has varied between regions and medical schools for historical reasons and because of differences in how much placement time is spent in hospitals and how much in GP. There has been a big shake-up for the 2022-23 academic year but recently it has averaged somewhere in the region of £100,000 per student across the clinical years (typically years 3-5).

So yes, somewhere just below £200,000 per student to complete a medical degree, of which students themselves contribute about 18% through their tuition fees.

@mumsneedwine sorry for the delay, was busy with an NHS patient. Med students get help including direct teaching from all HCPs who are not tied up in emergencies, that's how they learn. None of it is free. As for the £200k funding, several posters have spelt it out already, so you hopefully you now know that student fees make up less then 1/5th of the cost of getting someone to the end of med school, and which they will never reimburse the taxpayer unless they settle the loan. That means taxpayers already subsidise training far in excess of what the student will owe for the rest of their life, and that's how it is.

Debt is always an issue when people borrow, that's not exclusive to student finance. Borrowing is not necessarily a bad thing, it merely permits the deferral of costs for early benefits. That's why the country borrows, to stem immediate issues and invest in the future. The entitlement arises when they expect not to have debt merely because they've been given the privilege of accessing higher education of your personal choice.

I have to say at £24k I'd be looking to send my dc to a much better value university than most offer in the U.K.

my firm used to hire graduates from Romania who paid nothing for their degree. That sort of thing will also probably increase as they can justify paying them less than someone paying a lot more for their degree!

Pity we're out of the EU now as this will he harder and costlier

As per usual, those less fortunate will get free education for their kids whilst those with above average earnings have to pay for it.

Beyond a joke this country.

And how's that strategy working for them now we've left the EU? Or do they recruit for posts on the shortage occupation list?

Funny how most other European countries manage to do it isn’t it!
my DN is doing his degree in the Netherlands ( European passport) and is paying a third of the cost he would be paying here!

Have you not bothered to read the thread? The Netherlands gets its funding from the state rather than students paying from loans - the way we used to do to. What's that got to do with your point about VC salaries?